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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  March 2016, Week 3

CONLANG March 2016, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Without Genitive case

From:

Decremental Bug <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 18 Mar 2016 19:25:28 +0530

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (154 lines)

>
> You could distinguish between temporary and permanent being. "You
> are_temporary a slob" would be a reprimand, "You are_permanent a slob"
> would be an insult.

Wow !

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Pete Bleackley <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I am reminded of Robert Silverberg's "A Time of Changes", which begins
>
> My name is Kinnal Darival and I mean to tell you all about myself.
>
> …followed by an explanation of why, in the narrator's culture, that
> sentence would turn the air blue.
>
> You could distinguish between temporary and permanent being. "You
> are_temporary a slob" would be a reprimand, "You are_permanent a slob"
> would be an insult.
>
> Pete Bleackley
> The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
> http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
> Emily Semantic Recommendation - https://emily-petebleackley.rhcloud.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Decremental Bug <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:25
> Subject: Re: Without Genitive case
>
> >
> >  Plenty of languages just have a different construction for identity than
> > for class membership, and yours could be one of them.
>
>
> This is eye-opening. I will reconsider the choices. My lack of linguistic
> background is showing !
>
> if I say "Mary is eating", the reply "No, she does so much more than eat"
> > doesn't chime so well anymore.
>
>
> I am not convinced by this example. When I say "Mary is eating" or "Mary
> was dancing last night", no one assumes that she will keep eating or
> dancing all the time. Hence there is no need for the reply "No she does so
> much more than eat or dance".
>
> However, when I say "Mary is a slob" or "Mary is hard-working", the
> listener's mind will definitely conjure an image about Mary where she is
> always slob or hard-working -- and this image will change only after some
> other stimuli occur, like actually getting to know Mary personally or
> listening to more opinions about her. Atleast that's the way my mind works.
>
> cultures aren't such fragile things that they snap right back to the
> > biologically-determined human mean after a generation or two
>
>
> Well, this con-culture has more to it than I have described here. The
> founders themselves go back to their old ways once they have children.
>
> It might have readers and writers even without speakers.  A group that
> > could actually pull off seceding and constructing its own culture would
> > probably leave a literature of interest to many generations thence.
>
>
> Yes, I'll pin my hope on this.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 5:07 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > On 18 Mar 2016 10:46, "Alex Fink" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:23:46 +0530, Decremental Bug <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >> The motivation for E-Prime was that one should not use "be" in an
> > equative
> > > >> sense, [...] because Mary is much more than a slob! [...] so as to
> > remind
> > > >> the
> > > >> speaker that individuals are not identical to their actions.
> > > >
> > > >That was EXACTLY my reason for using it ! Thanks for the validation.
> > >
> > > For that matter, you could decide that meanings like 'slob' are
> construed
> > verbally or adjectivally (or in whatever word class you use for
> > prototypical non-time-stable notions), rather than as nouns as English
> has
> > it -- if I say "Mary is eating", the reply "No, she does so much more
> than
> > eat" doesn't chime so well anymore.
> >
> > & "Mary rocks/sucks/mings" is open to the same objections as "Mary is a
> > slob".
> >
> > > >I totally agree with both these points. But it so happens that the
> > speakers
> > > >of this language *created* this language (yes, the internal history
> also
> > > >presents it as a conlang)
> > >
> > > You can do what you want in your conworld, etc., but I read that
> > crestfallen.  Many people use this conceit (sometimes, it seems, because
> > they are perturbed to observe unnaturalistic elements in their creation
> but
> > are too attached to it to change them), but very few of them do the
> legwork
> > to explain how a conlang widely used as a first language could ever be
> > plausible.  In your case, you can have
> >
> > This won't decrestfall you, but the implausibility may be the consequence
> > not of a mere lack of legwork but rather of fantasy. (In the sense that
> > fantasy works by defining certain differences from reality.) One can try
> to
> > fabricate plausible explanations for these premised differences, but the
> > fantasy is not to be judged by the plausibility of the explanations.
> >
> > But your way makes it more interesting:
> > > Why not just have them excise bits of their earlier language through
> > taboo?  If there is enough social muscle behind the imperative that "you
> > can't say 'my trowel' anymore because we have abolished individual
> > ownership", it's very natural to imagine speakers overgeneralising the
> rule
> > out of a zeal to show their ideological correctness -- the very words
> "my"
> > "your" etc. become tainted and it becomes a sign of even greater
> > revolutionary commitment or whatever not to say "my mother".
> >
> > > >Now I worry if the speakers will start using this structure for
> emotions
> > as
> > > >well, for example "You can see my happiness" --becomes-- "You can see
> > > >happiness PART-OF-me".
> > >
> > > That's the reason I favoured just "I moved (the) hand": if you allow
> 'me'
> > to sneak into the construction in any way, it's too tempting to use
> > whatever morphosyntactic material glues 'me' to 'hand' as a generalised
> > possessive.
> >
> > "I moved that which behands me" is a less naturalistic but more
> logicalish
> > way of rendering it. "You can see my happiness" would be something like
> > "You can see me being happy".
> >
> > Even in English "my hand", I consider "me" to be complement of "hand".
> >
> > --And.
> >
>

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