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CONLANG  May 2016, Week 5

CONLANG May 2016, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Ancient Egyptian in X-Men Apocalypse

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 29 May 2016 15:30:55 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

On 28/05/2016 22:16, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Sat, 28 May 2016 14:58:01 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>
[snip]
>>
>> Correction - the hieroglyph system did not record any
>> vowel. Unlike the later development of the Hebrew and
>> Arabic abjads, the ancient Egyptian scribes did not use
>> any system of 'matres lectionis' to denote long vowels
>> - they certainly developed no system of vowel
>> pointing.
>
> Well, natively.

... which is what I was writing about    :)

> From the Middle Kingdom on, though mostly in the New
> Kingdom (and even more so in hieratic and demotic which
> were less burdened by conservatism), there was the _group
> writing_ system, mostly confined to foreign words and
> especially names,

Yes, I knew that by the late period there were conventions
for writing Greek names, such as those of the Ptolemaic
pharaohs etc.  I make no claims to expertise; my knowledge
of hieroglyphs is mainly from the Middle Kingdom, and I know
nothing of the conventions used in hieratic and demotic.
But I have not read that they are any more informative about
the vocalization of native ancient Egyptian.

> which did use matres lectionis: ‹3› /a/, ‹j› /i/, ‹w›
> /u/.

... which is, presumably, the source of the modern
conventional Egyptologist pronunciation of these in native
Egyptian.

> More precisely it was structured around CV groups: in
> this Schenkel sees the influence of cuneiform, whose most
> basic signs were CV. Some CV groups were written with
> extant biliteral signs; others used two monoconsonantal
> signs, the latter one of ‹3 j w›; and there were a few
> oddball cases where e.g. a single sign that is usually
> monoconsonantal acquires a CV value in group-writing.  At
> any rate, the usage of the system was not especially
> consistent, with matres lectionis being inserted in some
> places where they seem to have no function at all.

I get the distinct impression there always was a lack of
consistency in all forms of ancient Egyptian writing, until
those who adopted Christianity also adopted and adapted the
Greek alphabet, giving us the Coptic alphabet.
-----------------------------------------------------------

On 29/05/2016 10:19, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> There's also the question of where, in Egypt's long
> history, The Doctor should drop us off to do our
> fieldwork. The Egyptian spoken in the time of Narmer
> surely did not sound the same as that spoken in the time
>  of Cleopatra.

Yes, indeed.  No language is going to remain unchanged for
3000 years    :)

The conservative hieroglyphic writing will not give us much
clue about changes - especially a vowels are simply not
indicated.   Possibly there are hints in hieratic and
demotic and the interesting _group system_ that Alex talks
about above may give clues - I don't know.  But we can be
certain that Narmer would no more have understood Coptic
than King Alfred would understand modern contemporary
English - and the time between Narmer and Cleopatra is far
greater than that between King Alfred and today.

What period of ancient Egyptian is supposed to be spoken in
X-Men Apocalypse?

But even if it is, as I suspect, the conventional modern
Egyptologist pronunciation, does it matter?  After all, that
will be somewhat closer to the actual language than the
"Neanderthalese" spoken by Neanderthals in a TV series many
years ago (I think it was on UK Channel 4)!  But that the
Neanderthals were speaking something different and had
subtitles at least gave a sense that they were communicating
by language.

Ray

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