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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  May 2016, Week 5

CONLANG May 2016, Week 5

Subject:

Makers, Users, Students and Codifiers (was: A Request for Input on Sajem Tan) (longish)

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 30 May 2016 18:15:13 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (130 lines)

I have thought a lot about the question whether it is desirable to 'finish'
or 'freeze' a conlang. It of course depends on the purpose of the conlang,
but also on whether you are primarily a maker or a user, i.e. whether you
mainly get a kick out of the construction process itself or from producing
texts in the conlang, whether original or translated. The best analogy I
can think of is not surprisingly architecture. If you take a hobby interest
in architecture there are at least the following possible approaches, not
at all necessarily mutually exclusive or inclusive:

1)  Drawing plans and designs,
2)  Studying the plans and designs of others,
3)  Building structures from your own or other people's designs and plans,
4)  Watching existing buildings.
5)  Living in houses with a character of their own.

The conlanging equivalents would be

1)  Constructing phonologies, grammars, and/or vocabulary.
2)  Exploring the phonologies, grammars and/or vocabs constructed by
others, or by yourself in the past.
3) Writing texts in conlangs which were possibly constructed by others.
4)  Reading texts written in conlangs.
5)  Communicating with others in conlangs.

At least the people most active on this list tend to focus on (1) and to a
lesser extent (2). I certainly do, althogh I focus on (1) and (2) at
different times and when I focus on (2) the object is usually Tolkien's
languages. I even have a clear bias towards phonology, being less
interested in grammar and even less in vocabulary. Not surprisingly I also
have a keen interest in scripts, orthographies and romanization of both
conlangs and natlangs.

There is no question that by "conlanger" we usually mean a person primarily
engaged in (1). I identify as a (1) person even though the practice of (1)
is a slow and painful process, yet something I would not want to forsake.
This focus on (1) unfortunately leads to a neglect of (3), while (4) and
certainly (5) remain beyond the horizon for most people primarily  engaged
in (1), at least for one person projects. The extent to which people
engaged in (2) foray into (3) of course varies, but IME they do (3) more
than (1) people.

I think (1) people neglect and even look down on people who are mainly
interested in the other avenues, with the possible exception of producing
texts in their own conlangs. I also think the main reason why most
collaborative conlangs peter out is a heavy predominance of (1) people. A
collaborative conlang needs people with a healthy interest in at least (5)
and (2), if we assume documentation falls under (2), and I believe that (3)
and (4) are also more important for collaborative conlangs than for one
person projects. There is certainly an imbalance in that Makers can and
often (usually?) do neglect Students and Users, at least when it comes to
artlangs, while Students and Users depend on Makers. How lucky those are
who are all three in the same person! How lucky the collaborative conlang
which attracts all three kinds of people is!

Yet there is a tension, even a conflict, between Makers and the other two
kinds of people. To a predominant Maker a project which gets finished is
bound to seem dead or at least a lot less interesting, and a lang which
gets codified is not much better, since the Codification will tend to
inhibit Making. Tolkien felt bound by that which had been codified by
publication, and in his later years seems to have spent quite some energy
trying to reconcile the ongoing Making with the Codified. The User needs
codification and to the Student codification is often the main activity,
unless the Codifier isn't even another main rôle. The User and the Codifier
are justified in craving standardization. It is hard to use or describe a
language which morphs too much. To the extent that I've tried to use my
conlangs as a prop when writing fiction, or even as a part of the plot, I
have experienced that myself, but at the same time I have felt Tolkien's
dread before the Codified.

Although it is likely that a successful collaborative conlang needs people
fulfilling all the rôles it is likely bound to reach a point where the
creative impulses of Makers versus Users and Codifiers get at odds. Too
much morphing is an obstacle to the latter, while too little morphing will
alienate the Makers.

Ironically the Users and Codifiers can largely do without the Makers beyond
that point while we know from experience that a collaborative with only
Makers will wilt on the wine. Yet those who want to use and/or codify
Tolkien's languages are perpetually hampered by the fact that the maker has
departed: the vocabulary is limited and the grammar is incomplete, or at
least imperfectly known (though from what we know of Tolkien's creative
process it is unlikely that completion, let alone quantitative completion,
had the importance to him which Users would hope for). Since Tolkien is
truly departed the issue of epigonic Making is highly controversial, and to
some Students even epigonic Using is anathema. In practice even the most
makerish users mostly agree that arranging what the maker left behind in
new patterns is the limit of what is permissible.

Thus the complete departure of either the Makers or the Students or the
Users is not a good thing if a collaborative is to remain vital. To be sure
a multi-maker project is probably more similar to a natlang when it comes
to evolving and staying alive without strongly profiled Makers, but I think
that the challenge still is to keep all kinds of people around.

/bpj

Mind the reply to!
Den 30 maj 2016 15:23 skrev "James Constable" <[log in to unmask]>:

0 Divolm 34, 7 Tytyt, 7:53:45

> What opines the tribe? The post in question is here:
> https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=conlang;5595994c.1605d

The reanalysis suggested here would require us removing the root-particle
vowel
distinction, which has been baked in pretty hard. We would have to revise
much of
the language's foundations. Designing new forms and relegating the existing
ones
to the 'archaic' category would be simpler and less destructive.

I think we should avoid discussing technical solutions in this thread
though. I'm
finding it interesting to hear the outsider perspective, and I'd like to
avoid influencing
or weighing down the discussion too much.

> I just happen to go with an older version of the language, especially
since
> some aspects of the latest version are rather strange and confusing...

Yes, I have similar feelings toward both languages.

Btw, I'm enjoying the fact that despite all this discussion over our word
for 'cookie',
no one's noticed that it's actually an English loan word...

- River

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