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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 6 Jun 2016 16:37:24 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (193 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 06.06.2016 15:53, R A Brown wrote:

> On 04/06/2016 09:08, Jeff Daniel Rollin-Jones wrote:
>> I'm coming VERY late to the party,
>
> I did intervene early on, but that was really just a fear we
> might be getting into an Auxlang-type argument. That,
> thankfully, did not happened.  I have, for various reasons,
> not been able to follow this thread properly and just
> _skimmed_ (really was a skim) through the mails this morning.

You did not miss much. It was about what kind of notion of "model" (a 
word which means many different things, from a toy to a computational 
simulation) is appropriate to conlangs, and much of it was a discussion 
of Platonism in disguise.

>> but surely (aside from the fact that someone sat down,
>> with pen and paper (or computer), and invented it, the
>> difference between conlangs (including for these
>> purposes auxlangs) and natlangs is one of degree, not of
>> kind.
>
> That seems over-simplistic to me.
>
>> Natlangs (at least, the extant, healthy ones at any
>> particular point in time) are spoken by a wide variety
>> of people, in a wide variety of situations, and are
>> capable of being transmitted to children and foreign
>> language learners ...
>
> ... and are the latest manifestation of a very long
> evolutionary process stretching back millennia upon
> millennia at least into pre-human primates, if not further back.
>
> Conlangs such Tolkien's can, I agree, be considered as a
> difference of degree, not of kind, since Tolkien was
> attempting (successfully IMO) to create Middle Earth
> natlangs.  He was modeling human natlangs.  Many conlangers
> have done and do so for various reasons.  My own (alas, too
> slowly evolving) Britainese is attempting to do so.

Yes. This is a very strong current among artlangs. Yet, auxlangs and 
engelangs are different beasts (see below), and even some artlangs are!

Tolkien was a pioneer of the diachronic method in conlanging. At least, 
I haven't yet come across older examples. Of course, one may ask the 
question whether languages of unaging beings would change over time the 
same way as human languages, and this was a question Tolkien himself was 
aware of and wrote essays about. But apart from that, his conlangs 
verily resemble human natlangs. These may be justly called "model 
languages" in the likeness of a model railroad, which is more than just 
a toy - it works *the same way* as a real railroad, only much smaller. 
(And I seem to remember that the model railroad was the analogy Jeffrey 
Henning had in mind when he coined the phrase "model language".)

I'd hesitate to talk about a "difference of degree, not of kind" here. 
After all, those diachronic naturalistic fictional languages are still 
artificial creations that came to be in a different way than natlangs; 
that is in some ways a difference in kind. But if well done, such a 
conlang indeed closely resembles a natlang and can verily be called a 
"model language" - while auxlangs and most engelangs do not "model" 
anything!

> But IMO this is not true of most auxlangs.  The vast
> majority (there were one or two exceptions) auxlangs of the
> 17th century - the so-called a_priori ones - were most
> certainly _not_ attempting to model natlangs.  Indeed, hey
> were attempting to be free of the perceived imperfections of
> natlangs.  They were truly artificial and IMO different in
> kind as well as degree from natlangs.

Yep. Dalgarno and Wilkins (and many others) did not model natlangs. In 
fact, they wanted to "fix" language by building something *different*. 
They intended to abolish the arbitrariness of the sound-meaning 
relationship which they considered a flaw (which it, of course, isn't). 
Of course, their taxonomic schemes were inconvenient and many of their 
classifications wrong or at least questionable, and it all failed to 
work because they tried to fix what wasn't broken. These languages are 
indeed different in kind from natlangs.

> The first auxlang to gain a wide speaking public was Volapük
> which, although it used natlangs, particularly English, as a
> basis for vocabulary, and used morphology based on IE
> morphology, nevertheless retained some notions of avoiding
> the 'imperfections' of natlangs, i.e. did not try to model a
> natlang, but to produce something better, i.e. it was
> artificial and thus IMO both different in kind as well as
> degree from natlangs.

This is correct.

> The trouble was, as we know, while it was very regular, its
> morphology was far too complicated and just when it largely
> fell apart as different reformers quarreled among
> themselves,

An important factor in the demise of Volapük was of course that Schleyer 
brushed away all reform attempts, declaring that it was his own language 
and nobody besides him was allowed to change its rules or even add 
words. This was the death of Volapük, as a language that is the private 
property of a single person of course could not be the language of the 
whole world!

> along came Esperanto and, as they say, the rest
> is history.  But Zamenhof was not trying to model natlangs
> in the way that Tolkien was; he was still in the same mold
> of  Schleyer, author of Volapük, but cut out a great deal of
> the complications and made his vocabulary more obviously "a
> posteriori" in, as And observed, a pidgin-like way.

The difference between Volapük and Esperanto is only in degree, not in 
kind, I think - Esperanto is more closely based on existing European 
languages, but it still is a highly regular system that does not model a 
natlang. It was never meant to have native speakers - neither real nor 
fictional ones. It was meant as a universal *second* language while 
everybody would keep their native language.

The idea behind the a posteriori auxlangs was not at all to create a 
"mock" or model natlang. It was a consequence drawn from the failure of 
the a priori universal languages. The idea was to make the artificial 
scheme easier to use by drawing on elements that people would already 
know from their native languages, but from those elements, a new 
language was built that was not meant to resemble a natlang with all its 
idioms and irregularities. That Esperanto would nevertheless develop 
such idiosyncrasies (such as the verb _krokodili_ 'to speak a national 
language in an Esperantist social context [which is considered 
impolite]') is not a matter of its design, but a consequence of it being 
used in practice.

> As for engelangs, many do not attempt to model natlangs.

I'd say, *most* don't.

> Many are experimental such as AllNoun and R. Skrikanth's
> Lin. James Cooke Brown AIUI deliberately tried to avoid the
> natlang model and to construct a language based on predicate
> logic.  Whether Loglan in fact really does this or not is
> beside the point and a debate I do not wish to stir up or
> get involved with.  But it was his intention AIUI to produce
> a language _different in kind_ from natlangs.

Right! I haven't yet seen an engelang that resembles a natlang. All of 
those I have seen had "unnatural" features; none had any notion of 
diachronic development. A "naturalistic engelang" seems a contradiction 
in terms to me.

> As for my own conlangs FWTW:
>
> 1. The briefscript project: this most certainly was *not* an
> attempt to model natlangs.  It was an unsuccessful attempt
> to produce a language (a) which, when written
> alphabetically, could serve as an alphabetic shorthand, and
> (b) which could serve as an international auxiliary language.

Yep. Nothing modelled here.

> 2. TAKE: an _experiment_ in stripping ancient Greek of all
> inflexions.  The result may perhaps model a pidgin, but I
> made no attempt to model a fully fledged natlang.

It started as an attempt to model an auxlang of a fictional universe, if 
I remember correctly, but was soon detached from that notion and no 
longer modelled anything.

> 3. Outidic (my favorite, so far): was certainly not an
> attempt to model any natlang, or to be different only in
> kind from a natlang.  It was an attempt to model a 17th
> century a_posteriori auxlang  - one such critter is known,
> and it now has a conlang partner   :)
> It was language modeling, I guess; but not modeling a
> natlang, rather modeling an artificial auxiliary    ;)

Sure - it's a model of an auxlang.

> 4. Britainese: the only one that is actually modelling a
> natlang and, hopefully, different in degree from natlangs,
> but not different in kind.

Right. Britainese is of the same kind as many other diachronic conlangs, 
modelling a natlang.

As for my own conlangs, those I am currently working on are all 
diachronic fictional ones that explicitly model hypothetical natlangs. 
Old Albic, for instance, is meant to model a language spoken in 
pre-Celtic Britain, by a culture that may have been Plato's Atlantis.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
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October 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
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June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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May 2005, Week 3
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April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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August 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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