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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 7 Jun 2016 21:35:09 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 07.06.2016 20:35, R A Brown wrote:

> On 07/06/2016 17:12, [log in to unmask] wrote:
>> quote: Ray
>>> 'conlang' is an abbreviation for "constructed
>>> _language_" therefore a conlang is a language - the
>>> clue is in the name ;)
>>
>> Well, yes, but as the White Knight so wisely observed
>> (quite the philosopher he was), what something's name is
>>  called doesn't necessarily equate to what the thing
>> itself *is*. A sea lion isn't really a lion, and a
>> prairie dog isn't really a dog, so things aren't always
>> what they're called. :-P
>
> OK, Christa, point taken   ;)
>
> BUT to be serious: as we call everything from the low level
> programming Assembler Language to things like Chinese and
> English which, together, are spoken and used by millions
> upon millions of people at this very moment and have
> centuries of literature behind them, and everything else in
> between _languages_, to deny that conlangs are languages is
> IMNSHO perverse.

At least, sufficiently developed conlangs are actual languages; 
sketchlangs may not be fully functional languages, but unless they are 
structurally flawed, they have the *potential* of being expanded into 
fully functional languages.

> If you look up _language_ in Larry Trask's "A Dictionary of
> Grammatical Terms in Linguistics" you find:
> *language_ /'læŋɡwɪdʒ/ _n_. 1. A *natural language*. 3. A
> *formal language.*
>
> Not a great help in itself, but if we then look up 'natural
> language' we find it defined as:
> 1. Any language which is, or once was, the mother tongue of
> a group of human beings.

This is the usual definition of 'natural language', I think, and the one 
used by most conlangers.

> 2. By extension, any conceivable language which is
> consistent with the requirements of the theory of grammar
> and which might in principle be such a mother tongue.

Interesting - this would make any sufficiently developed naturalistic 
conlang into a "natural language"!

> Then if we look up 'formal language', we find it defined thus:
> A language generated by a *formal grammar*. A formal
> language may or may not resemble a natural language; one of
> the goals of grammatical investigation is the construction
> of grammars which generate formal languages resembling
> natural languages as closely as possible.

Yep.

> Formal languages are Assembler Language and the numerous
> computer programming languages.  In the realm of conlangs,
> 'Plan B' is certainly a formal language and so, probably,
> are some other engelangs.
>
> By Trask's definition Sindarin and Quenya are natural
> languages.

Yes. One could easily imagine human ethnic groups (probably somewhere in 
Europe - the Quendian languages have a very European typological 
profile) speaking these languages! Sindarin could be somewhere in 
western Britain, Quenya perhaps in Scandinavia or the Baltic region.

> So, I think, Esperanto, Volapük, Novial, Frater
> and other such auxlangs also fit his definition.

At least, they could be adopted by human groups as their primary 
languages and to have their children grow up with as native languages. 
There are, after all, native speakers of Esperanto.

> We may argue where, in Trask's bipartite division oddities
> such as the "philosophic" auxlangs of the 17th century and
> other more recent creations such as Lin and Babm fit; but to
> deny that these are languages would be IMO perverse.

I would also say that they are languages. Not naturalistic languages, 
but still languages.

> Now if we turn to David Crystal's "A Dictionary of
> Linguistics and Phonetics" and look up 'language' we find
> that his entry takes up one and half pages!  I will not go
> into it all here.  But the entry begin thus:
> *language" The everyday use of this term involves several
> different senses, which LINGUISTICS is careful to distinguish.

Fair.

> His entry goes on to discuss all these different senses.  At
> one point in his entry, you will read:
> "... All of these examples would fall under the heading of
> 'natural languages' - a term which contrasts with the
> artificially constructed systems used to expound a
> conceptual area (e.g. 'forma', 'logical', 'computer'
> languages) or to facilitate communication (e.g Esperanto)."
>
> That should please you, Christa  :)
>
> Also it should be remember that e.g. is _exempli gratia_
> "for the sake of an example", i.e. he is _not_ giving
> exhaustive lists of the types of artificially constructed
> languages.  *But he does call them _languages_*.

Right - common sense says that systems such as Esperanto, Ars signorum, 
Lojban, Fith or Klingon are languages, even if they are artificially 
constructed and no linguistician worth his stripes could mistake them 
for actual natural languages.

> Thus, while I agree that sea lions are not lions, and
> prairie dogs are not dogs (nor jelly fish are fish, or
> buttercups are cups), I do stick by my original claim that
> constructed languages are, as David Crystal says, languages.
>  Even the subject line of this thread acknowledges that they
> are _languages_.  What it says is "conlangs as model languages."

Yes, and model languages are languages, even if they are not natural 
languages, and perhaps not complete languages.

> Note: it does not say "conlangs _are_ model languages."
> What, surely, it implies is _one way_ of looking upon
> constructed languages.  In my previous email I pointed out
> why did not think this is (always) the most helpful way of
> looking at such languages.

Touché. Some conlangs - namely the naturalistic artlangs - can be 
usefully considered models of natural languages. But not all conlangs 
are such models. Auxlangs and most engelangs are not. They do not model 
anything.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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