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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Question on Orthography

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:56:45 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (198 lines)

The case of Wulfila and the Gothic alphabet is an interesting illustration.
He was probably that rare thing: a scholar (albeit in a society where
phonetics or phonological theory hadn't been invented) who had native or
near-native competence in both the previously unwitten (or at least
previously non-literary) language and the language whose writing system was
borrowed. His choices resulted in a probably mixed phonetic/phonemic system
which all the same kept some orthographic quirks of Greek, such as writing
[ŋg] as {gg} in spite of it being /ng/ and [gg] also existing in the
language. He was capable of innovation, as he designed some consonant
letters from whole cloth. Yet when it came to the vowels he preferred to
adopt some Greek digraphs to designing new letters. His capacity for both
phonemic analysis and innovation is shown in that when he had adopted the
Greek digraph {ai} for [ɛ] he analogously applied the digraph {au} to [ɔ]
without any Greek model -- indeed αυ existed in Greek but was pronounced
very differently --, but then why not design whole new letters? He could
distinguish short and long vowels, since he consistently used the Greek
digraph {ei} for /iː/ against {i} for /i/. Yet he failed to distinguish
other long--short vowel pairs. Indeed he even wrote short [ɛ] and [ɔ] with
{ai} {au} in spite of those rather being allophones of /i/ and /u/. Our
conclusion must be that there must have been some phonetic difference
between /iː/ and /i/ which he decided to mark because Greek incidentally
had a suitable grapheme pair. Also note that scholars still don't agree
whether Gothic still had [ai] and [au] or they truly had become /ɛː/ /ɔː/
in all cases!

This can suitably be contrasted with the adaptation of Greek writing to
Slavic some half a millennium later. It is thought that the first attempt
to devise a Slavic script, again done by a bilingual scholar and even
polyglot, resulted in what is best described as a 'reglyphification':
Constantine Cyrillus did an admirable phonemic analysis of the Slavic
language, including devising graphemes for all consonants not found in
Greek and for short and long vowels alike. Yet he invented complicated more
or less novel glyphs for *all* phonemes, similar to a school boys' cipher!
It was only some generation or two later that someone applied Constantine's
phonemic analysis to the Greek alphabet. This someone was not afraid of
deriving new letters from allographs ({d, dz}, perhaps also {b}), ligatures
({b, ģ, ć, ĭ, ŭ}, perhaps {ž}), borrowing from other scripts ({š, c,
č} from Hebrew and perhaps {ž} from Coptic) and perhaps also from whole
cloth ({ž, ĭ, ŭ}) or reviving Greek numeral letters ({č}) --
alternative derivations reflect scholarly disagreement. Yet even they kept
one Greek digraph (ου for {ũ}) and even invented a new one ({ŭi} for
[ɨː]) and kept redundant Greek allographs for /iː/.

BTW those who devised the Armenian script, in spite of whole-clothing and
polyalphabetic borrowing with gusto used a digraph for [u] on the Greek
model, +erhaps showing that they after all saw Greek script as their main
source.

/bpj

Mind the reply to!
Den 1 jun 2016 09:34 skrev "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <
[log in to unmask]>:

> On 1 June 2016 at 07:32, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Let me give an example. Suppose you are learning a conlang called
> > "English". You wish to be able to read and understand it, and also to
> > pronounce it correctly. You learn that the plural is -s or -es. Would you
> > rather see "dogs" or "dogz"? With "dogs" you can recognize it as a plural
> > noun and quickly find "dog" in the dictionary. But you might pronounce it
> > wrongly as xs:/dOgs/. With "dogz" you might puzzle over why you cannot
> find
> > "dogz" in the dictionary for awhile, but you will pronounce rightly it as
> > xs:/dOgz/.
> >
> >
> The problem with this example is that English orthography is neither
> phonetic nor phonemic, nor has it been designed to reflect English
> morphemes (although it not too badly doing so probably helped in it staying
> the way it is). Rather, it represents (mostly) an earlier stage of the
> language, and in that stage it was a mostly *phonetic* orthography. So your
> example is not quite making the point you are trying to make.
>
> Basically, since you have a culture associated with this language (and I
> take it these are humans), we can look at how things happened here in the
> "real" world for guidance. Basically, when pre-literate societies get a
> writing system, it can happen in various ways. Whether the resulting system
> will be phonetic, phonemic or something different will usually not depend
> on the nature of the language but rather on the way they got the writing
> system, and on how long ago they got it:
> - Often, the pre-literate people are not the ones who make the step to
> adopt a writing system. Rather, it's literate people who contacted them who
> do so, if only to write things down like names and such, and the
> pre-literate people, if they don't get assimilated by a colonial power that
> destroys their culture and language, will start writing their language
> using whatever system those literate people used, at least at first. Now,
> if the literate people in question are linguistically naive, they will
> probably write the language of the pre-literate people using whatever
> system they use for their own language, with haphazard modifications to
> handle sounds and/or combinations of sounds that language does not have.
> The pre-literate people will adopt that system, and only after some time
> (generations maybe), and after an actual scholarly culture has developed
> around their language will they (maybe) go back and reform that orthography
> into something more fitting (which may or may not be more phonemic by the
> way). If, on the other hand, the literate people who contact them are
> actually field linguists there to study their language, these people will
> normally try and create an orthography based on their analysis of the
> language, i.e. one that is usually phonemic (although if allophony is a
> really important phenomenon they might want to create a mixed orthography,
> that is principally phonemic but does hint at the actual pronunciation, so
> that one does not have to keep all the allophonic rules in mind to go from
> the written word to the actual spoken word and vice versa). The
> pre-literate will then usually be taught this orthography, which depending
> on the scholar's aptitude at describing their language may be a good fit
> for their language or not.
> - If the pre-literate people themselves decide to adopt a writing system,
> once again it depends on how they do it whether the result will be more
> phonemic or phonetic (and on how fit for their language the writing
> system(s) they have been exposed to are). If they see writing simply as a
> kind of memory aid that is meant to support their oral culture rather than
> record it, go back to the case of an orthography based on another
> language's writing system with haphazard modifications (maybe. They may not
> even consider worth it to really capture the phonetic reality of their
> language). If they do want to really record their words in writing, but do
> not stop and try to analyse how their language works, the result will
> probably be phonetic (once again, modulo how fitting the writing system
> they are adapting is to their language). If they actually go the extra mile
> and start with analysing their language (or getting it analysed: in some -
> rare - cases, pre-literate people actually *ask* for field linguists to
> come and help them analyse their language and design an orthography for
> it), the result will probably be more phonemic, although once again it
> depends on how much allophony there is in the language.
> - And then there are cases like Sequoyah's invention of the Cherokee
> Syllabary, where pre-literate people invent a entirely different way of
> writing their language, although influenced by writing systems they've seen
> but couldn't read, or cases like the Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics, where a
> literate person was involved in the creation, but the result is not based
> on that person's writing system. Notice that in both cases, the resulting
> system fails to be either phonemic or phonetic (the Cherokee Syllabary, in
> particular, conflates some phonemes and fails to indicate tone).
>
> In the end, what the pre-literate culture will end up adopting as an
> orthography will mostly depend on the history of how they reached literacy,
> rather than on the structure of their language. In any case, a truly
> phonemic system in the case of your language seems rather unlikely, unless
> the history of how they got the writing system does involve a field
> linguist at some point, or at least someone well versed in language
> studies. Truly phonemic or nearly phonemic writing systems seem to arise
> only in a few cases:
> - languages with little allophony (or at least simple allophony rules),
> spoken by people who don't mind reforming their orthography once in a while
> (Spanish is close);
> - languages of already literate people that made a conscious (or at least
> imposed by authority) change in writing system based on scholar analysis of
> their language (Turkish and Albanian seem to fit that category, at least
> somewhat);
> - languages whose writing system has been designed by a field linguist,
> whether with or without help from the natives.
>
> In any other case, the writing system will be either phonetic, or a mix
> between phonemic and phonetic, or something different (and possibly more
> defective). Although that's only for the originally used writing system. As
> I wrote above, not everyone is as resistant to orthographic reform as
> English speakers, and especially small communities will have less qualms
> modifying a writing system if they feel it's not fit to their needs,
> especially after a generation or two. Such modifications will usually turn
> the orthography into something more phonemic, although it is by no means
> certain they'll go all the way in this.
>
> So basically, there is no simple answer to your original question. You need
> to work out *how* the pre-literate people got literacy in order to define
> what their orthography will look like.
>
> Note that this is a subject that interests me a lot at the moment, as I am
> trying to work out how the Haotyétpi speakers (who were pre-literate until
> about 3 to 4 generations ago) are currently writing their language. So I
> had to ask myself the same question (and Haotyétpi does feature a lot of
> allophony too). And my current answer is that the system is probably going
> to be mixed, i.e. partially phonemic and phonetic, and defective (it won't
> mark stress as I do in the romanisation, as it's derived from the writing
> system of a language with predictable stress position). This makes it all
> the more complicated to create, but I feel it's more naturalistic that way.
>
>
> >
> > On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Lighthouse Maniac <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > I think it's more natural to have a phonetic alphabet. For someone just
> > > learning to write, that would seem a more logical. Over time, you might
> > add
> > > imperfections, but I'd say keep it phonetic for now.
> > >
> > > -R∆
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
> President of the Language Creation Society (http://conlang.org/)
>
> Personal Website: http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> Personal Tumblr: http://christophoronomicon.tumblr.com/
>

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November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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