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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: graftlangs and hybridlangs

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 2 Jun 2016 09:55:28 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (174 lines)

Jörg wrote:

> Your experience with "Galliotic" highlights the central methodical
problem of graftlanging: there are hardly any two languages with the same
phonology, such that you just can't simply apply the sound changes leading
from language X to language Y, to language Z. You need some "preparatory"
sound changes which transform Z into a kind of "pseudo-X" before you can
develop your "pseudo-Y" from it. And these are often hard if not impossible
to find. As you know, I have tried my luck on a graftlang myself - Roman
Germanech - and I had to fudge things in a similar way. And the result was
accordingly a rather crappy language.

Your description pretty much identical to the conclusion I came to. My
predicament was exacerbated by the fact that I wanted also to produce a
plausible historical phonology by some definition of plausible. For example
Koiné had [y] and French has [y], so it would be very convenient to derive
Galliotic [y] from Koiné [y], but presumably there would also exist
Italiotic and Iberiotic langs in the same timeline. Would they also all
have [y]?

However that was not what I had expected at the time; I and another
conlanger had had something of a success in adapting the phonology of
Vulgar Latin to that of late Common Slavic, which in retrospect was because
once you had stomached the mapping of VL _ẹ, ọ_ to LCS _ĭ, ŭ_ (the yers)
those two phonologies weren't as different as that of Koiné and Vulgar
Latin. In the event Koiné [y] proved to be an odd man out -- I simply
couldn't stomach [y] staying [y], with its repercussions on the
theoretically coexisting "Western Hellenic languages", nor [y] becoming [i]
and then [u] (ου) becoming [y]. On the consonant side θ and the
palatalization of velars were as intractable, the latter because Koiné had
no labiovelars which could have stayed velars before front vowels. In
retrospect I could have devised sound changes which would result in a
lámatyáve similar to French if I had followed the Latin-to-French patterns
less slavishly than a typical graftlang would have done, and had I known
what I now know about Modern Greek dialectology I would surely have posited
that [y] became [u] *in the other Western Hellenic languages*, but not
least because I would have gotten [y] and [ø] for free those sound changes
would have been simpler than the real-world Latin-to-French ones and so
less challenging by my thinking at the time.

> And then there is, of course, the question of historical plausibility. If
you replace language X by language Z, why should then language Z undergo
the same sound changes as language X did in real life? Is there something
in the soil of, say, Gaul, that guided the transformation of Vulgar Latin
into French, and would similarly guide the transformation of Koiné Greek
into Galliotic? Nope. Sure, a big fuss has been made of the notion of a
Celtic substratum in French, but  in French, nobody really believes anymore
that any feature of French, apart from a few Gaulish loanwords, owes
something to Gaulish Celtic.

While it's pretty clear that the significance of Gaulish in the development
of French is nil or very nearly so it is undeniable that French is that
Romance language which has been most profoundly influenced by Germanic,
probably because there were more bilinguals for a longer time than
elsewhere. Yet the historical phonology of French is mostly the same
general tendencies as elsewhere in Western Romance, only twisted hard a few
extra rounds in the direction already taken. In a way a plausible Greek
analog of French would be a lang which twists modern Greek a few extra
rounds in the direction already taken, but that language already exists in
the real world since viewed in that light Northern Modern Greek compares to
Ancient Greek remarkably similar to how French, or at least Occitan or
Galloitalian, compares to Latin! By the law of ANADEW there probably is
some Northern Greek dialect which lost intervocalic voiced fricatives
making the real world analogy complete.

Then there is the question of sociolinguistic plausibility: given the
principle of ceteris paribus there would in the East have been a standard
Greek with a vernacular basis much closer to Koiné. It is not likely that
much different standard languages could have established themselves in the
West; I simply don't think the Schism and political fragmentation would
have been enough.

> It is instructive to look at diaspora languages such as Yiddish or
Romani. These may take on some features from the majority languages of the
countries where they are spoken, but as a rule, they do not undergo the
same changes as the majority languages - they have their own histories. It
is not even such that the main isoglosses in the Yiddish and Romani dialect
continua faithfully reflect the boundaries of the majority languages

At the time I actually saw, due to wishful thinking, the similarity of real
world Italiote Greek to South Italian as a shred of confirmation of the
plausibility of the bogolang premise. On closer inspection that similarity
is of course the result of perhaps over two millennia of diglossia among
the Italiotes. Italiote Greek in a world without any South Italian is most
likely to not have had those traits. The same is of course true of dental
fricatives intruding on the native vocabulary of Welsh Romani or similar
occurrences of front rounded vowels in Scandinavian Romani: they are the
result of longtime bilingualism and false analogy!

/bpj
Den 1 jun 2016 21:17 skrev "Jörg Rhiemeier" <[log in to unmask]>:

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On 01.06.2016 13:10, Melroch wrote:
>
> Mind the reply to!
>>
>> A graftlang would be either Korean as it was prior to the
>>> 9th century to which the diachronic sound changes from Old
>>> Norse to modern Icelandic was applied, or Old Norse to which
>>> the sound changes of Korean over the past millennium were
>>> applied - either would be quite a challenge, but neither
>>> resulting graftlang could remotely resemble a Bantulang   :)
>>>
>>> To produce a conlang which is a true hybrid of Korean and
>>> Icelandic is a whole different matter and would be a
>>> challenge; but to make it appear like a naturally evolved
>>> Bantulang would be immeasurably more difficult.    :)
>>>
>>> A challenge, certainly - but is it worth it?  Indeed, is it
>>> possible?
>>>
>> I doubt it, considering the failure my attempt to create a realistic
>> analog
>> of French as it might have developed from Greek instead of Latin. Indeed
>> it
>> failed already in transforming Koiné Greek into something which resembled
>> Vulgar Latin enough to apply the French sound changes in a realistic way:
>> what would happen to θ, χ  in Vulgar Western Greek? Should β split into
>> [b]
>> and [v] or become [v] throughout? How would differentiated [b] and [v] be
>> spelled? And even more problematic, would "Galliotic" [y] develop from
>> Koiné υ or from Koiné ου?
>> Would Koiné ω become VWG [o] or [ɔ]? Would VWG [ɛ] come from η or αι or ε
>> or some pair of them? Would η merge with ει or αι or neither? Would ει
>> merge with ι or η or both or neither, or would short ι merge with η and
>> long with ει? If short and long ι developed differently would short υ or
>> οι
>> or both become [ø] and so on and so forth (since οι merged with υ in OTL
>> and [y] remained until the 11th century in some dialects, and then in some
>> merged with [u] from ου rather than with [i]). Should the development of
>> the many front vowels be parallel to that of the back vowels? And all that
>> because Vulgar Latin had more and different vowels than late Koiné in our
>> timeline!
>> There simply wasn't any answer to those questions which didn't seem
>> totally
>> arbitrary to me. Especially there was no combination of answers which
>> seemed enough realistic and satisfying.
>>
>
> Your experience with "Galliotic" highlights the central methodical problem
> of graftlanging: there are hardly any two languages with the same
> phonology, such that you just can't simply apply the sound changes leading
> from language X to language Y, to language Z. You need some "preparatory"
> sound changes which transform Z into a kind of "pseudo-X" before you can
> develop your "pseudo-Y" from it. And these are often hard if not impossible
> to find. As you know, I have tried my luck on a graftlang myself - Roman
> Germanech - and I had to fudge things in a similar way. And the result was
> accordingly a rather crappy language.
>
> And then there is, of course, the question of historical plausibility. If
> you replace language X by language Z, why should then language Z undergo
> the same sound changes as language X did in real life? Is there something
> in the soil of, say, Gaul, that guided the transformation of Vulgar Latin
> into French, and would similarly guide the transformation of Koiné Greek
> into Galliotic? Nope. Sure, a big fuss has been made of the notion of a
> Celtic substratum in French, but  in French, nobody really believes anymore
> that any feature of French, apart from a few Gaulish loanwords, owes
> something to Gaulish Celtic.
>
> It is instructive to look at diaspora languages such as Yiddish or Romani.
> These may take on some features from the majority languages of the
> countries where they are spoken, but as a rule, they do not undergo the
> same changes as the majority languages - they have their own histories. It
> is not even such that the main isoglosses in the Yiddish and Romani dialect
> continua faithfully reflect the boundaries of the majority languages!
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>

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September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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