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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:12:14 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

On 1 June 2016 at 13:32, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> On 1 June 2016 at 12:43, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > My personal (but also informed) opinion is that the essence, or core, of
> > language is constituted of rules, and that the system when seen from
> close
> > up and studied intently looks like a rule-based system; outside this
> > 'glottonomic' core are psycholinguistics and knowledge of usage.
> >
> Since I disagree with the main statement, I have nothing to say about the
> rest. The idea that a language is *essentially* a set of rules just smells
> too much like UG for it to be even worth considering.
>

Your nose is off. The UG hypothesis is just that there is a domain-specific
biological faculty of language that constrains langue. This is largely
unrelated to the idea that a language is essentially a set of rules. That
idea has two parts: one part is that language consists in part of a set of
rules; the other part is that if you remove everything but the set of rules
you're still left with language but if you remove the set of rules then
you're not, which gives you the essentiality.



> > But turning to your credible hunch about the mechanics of language, it
> > prompts a number of questions:
> > 1. Is it in principle possible to create a full working model of a
> > language?
>
> No, quite simply. Like I wrote, it's impossible to ever completely describe
> a natlang with a rule-based system (what you call "a full working model").
>

Rather I meant to ask whether it is possible to model in full the actual
mechanics of language, be they rule-based or chaotic. Just as science might
model in full the air in a thimble, or the brain of a flea, might science
do the same with language? Maybe, if you had misunderstood my questions,
you will reconsider your answers to them?


> You may approach it asymptotically, but you will always end up with an
> irreducible residue that is not described by the rules in place (and
> covering that residue with a rule like "the rest is like that because
> that's how it is" is a cop-out). So whatever you do, you will always end up
> with an incomplete model of a language (which does not necessarily means
> that it's not working, by the way).
>

What do you think is the underlying mechanism of language that means that
only asymptotically can rules approach a full characterization of its
workings?

And what is it that convinced you that there is this asymptotic limit? I
don't think it's borne out by the experience of linguisticians who pursue
rule-based descriptions. Yes, rules may differ greatly in their generality,
and yes the feeble linguistician is apt to posit rules on the basis of
insufficient data and then find that consideration of further data reveals
the inadequacy of the posited rule; but we don't find pertinent data that
is uncapturable by rule.


> 3. If so, does the creative invention of a full language consist of
> > inventing just the language components, on the assumption that if you
> feed
> > them into the general cognitive model, a full working language results?
>
> Once again, this question is in principle unanswerable given its
> presupposition. However, the way children are able to learn languages based
> on numerous, but always incomplete data (unlike UG which claims that the
> data is just not numerous enough, I believe it is. It is, however, never
> complete, since you can never hear all utterances one can make in a
> language, however long you will live), the way creoles appear from pidgins
> learned as mother tongue, and the way Esperanto evolved after it got a
> speaking community (unlike what one may have expected, speakers of
> Esperanto didn't, as a whole, fill the missing parts of Esperanto as it was
> originally described using their L1's as pattern. Rather, they by and large
> took Esperanto's unique characteristics: its extremely productive affix
> system, and the absence of a true distinction between root and affix, to
> fill in the holes with liberal use of such characteristics in a way that
> was decidedly Esperanto-ish and incomparable. Even when borrowings appeared
> at first -which was not uncommon among the first writers of Esperanto. Even
> Zamenhof himself was rather conservative in his use of affixes-, they often
> got replaced in time with constructions based on original Esperanto stock,
> with only few exceptions), makes me opine that people can easily form a
> full working language from incomplete input. The more complete the model
> they are fed, the easier it will be to fill the blanks while keeping true
> to the nature of the language as sketched by the incomplete description
> they got, but even with what we would consider very incomplete description
> I believe our innate capacity for cognition and pattern matching (and
> furthermore our innate ability to find patterns where they actually don't
> exist. Our brains are often over-enthusiastic in finding patterns in chaos)
> will be able to fill the blanks with nary a visible scar.
>

I dispute none of this. But I had meant to ask about complete models: you
say "the more complete the model they are fed, the easier it will be to
fill in the blanks", and I had been saying that if you haven't got a
complete model (under a certain interpretation of 'complete'), you haven't
invented a language (tho you have modelled one). I had wondered if, given
what you'd said, your threshold for completeness is much lower than mine
(such that existing conlangs can be said to satisfy it). To remind, the
sense of 'completeness' I am focused on is the mechanism for mapping
between sentence form and sentence meaning.


> But what are the linguistic components of a full
> > working model? What must the conlanger invent?
> >
> >
> Since no *full* working model is possible to create, I have no answer to
> that one. Just create your incomplete rule-based model as detailed as you
> see fit, the way we've always done. The more detailed, the better, but even
> with a rather incomplete description a speaking community will often be
> able to derive an entire language out of it (although not necessarily
> exactly the way you imagined it). Just don't ever try to attain that
> chimerical "full working model" of a language, because that's a wild-goose
> chase. Anyone who's spent decades working on a single conlang will agree
> with me: one comes asymptotically close to a complete description, but it's
> impossible to actually finish it (and I'm not just talking about vocabulary
> size).


I think no description of a nonloglangoid conlang or a natlang has yet come
remotely close to being a full working model, and seeking one would indeed
be a wild-goose chase for the artlanger who desires to emulate natlangs
rather than, as the loglanger does, build from first principles. So we
agree on that. My conclusion is that we should therefore understand
ourselves to be not inventing languages but modelling languages.

--And.

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