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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages (was: Re: Lighting Some Flames: Towards conlang artistry

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 3 Jun 2016 20:51:03 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (220 lines)

On 1 June 2016 at 20:28, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Attempting to specify a language in the way And seems to want feels to me a
> lot like trying to quantify consciousness, to the point that you have a
> definite, better-than-Turing test to say "yes, this is a self-aware
> entity."
>
> I'm skeptical we will ever get that for either consciousness or language,
> nat- or con-. But even if we could, I have no idea what it has to do with a
> language being "real".  Languages are real if you can communicate in them.
> Heck, Esperanto has L1 speakers; I don't know how you get more real than
> that.
>

Yes, one or two messages in this thread have introduced the notion of a
"real" language, but (I think) none of mine have; there's been nothing I've
wanted to say, in this thread, about realness. My point has, at least in
intent, been that conlangers don't author or invent (full, non-model)
languages; rather, they model them. That model can then be projected onto
unconscious L1 knowledge to unconsciously create some kind of more or less
elaborate pidgin language. This isn't to diss conlangers, it's rather just
to better understand what it is they do.

--And.




>
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Pete Bleackley <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > The talk that Jim gave and you translated at LCC6 was the main
> inspiration
> > for this conlang.
> >
> > Pete Bleackley
> > The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
> > http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
> > Emily Semantic Recommendation - https://emily-petebleackley.rhcloud.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tony Harris <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 19:22
> > Subject: Re: conlangs as model languages (was: Re: Lighting Some Flames:
> > Towards conlang artistry
> >
> > This sounds actually somewhat like what Jim Hopkins and I do in Itlani,
> > which we have been corresponding in for some time.  Not every message is
> > in Itlani, and I'll admit I'm not truly what I would call fluent (I
> > still have to look up more words than I'd like), but at least according
> > to Jim I have managed to internalize the "spirit" or "flavor" of Itlani
> > sufficiently that my use of it feels reasonably native, at least like
> > that of a fluent L2 speaker.
> >
> > And while I don't often write really long emails because I'm just too
> > lazy to work that much, we can generally communicate about anything we
> > want to, politics, life events, health, family, cats, entertainment,
> > spirituality, etc.
> >
> > So, is Itlani a "real" language?  Perhaps not by And's definition. But
> > my Jim's, and mine, yes, it is.  And to be honest, since we're using it
> > and enjoying it, I'm not sure either of us much cares if it meets some
> > wider official definition of the term.
> >
> > Which, I think, is largely the point of conlanging anyway.  If the
> > author is enjoying the art, investing themselves in it, and finding it
> > emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually fulfilling, then I don't
> > believe any other criteria is necessary.
> >
> >
> > On 06/01/2016 02:05 PM, Pete Bleackley wrote:
> > > A fluent speaker of a language has a mental model of that language,
> > which enables them to express ideas in it and understand ideas expressed
> in
> > it. Such a model is learned by experience, the speaker is not consciously
> > aware of it, and nobody has ever managed to explicitly describe one for
> any
> > language, natural or constructed.
> > >
> > > A description of a language, such as a conlanger or linguist might
> > write, is not the same as such a model. However, with sufficient
> practice,
> > you could learn such a model, using the information in a good grammar to
> > bootstrap the process.
> > >
> > > So, And, I have a challenge for you. Let us correspond with each other,
> > offlist, in Khangaþyagon for a year, and see how fluent we become in it,
> > and what else we learn in the process.
> > >
> > > Pete Bleackley
> > > The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
> > http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
> > > Emily Semantic Recommendation -
> https://emily-petebleackley.rhcloud.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Sent: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 17:54
> > > Subject: Re: conlangs as model languages (was: Re: Lighting Some
> Flames:
> > Towards conlang artistry
> > >
> > > On 1 June 2016 at 17:14, David McCann <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:38:16 +0100
> > >> And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I haven't actually read Zamenhof's writings, only the sixteen rules,
> > >>> and shortish descriptions of E's grammar, but I know of no reason to
> > >>> believe that Z miraculously managed to achieve a fuller specification
> > >>> of his conlang than any other conlanger in history has; the
> > >>> specification is the authored conlang. No conlang's specification to
> > >>> date is both (i) sufficient to define the mapping between its
> > >>> sentences' form and their meaning and (ii) not radically simplified
> > >>> in comparison to natlangs.
> > >> Zamenhof's writings *are* that specification. Over the course of a
> > >> decade he consciously developed a vocabulary *and style* by
> translating
> > >> a varied selection of texts.
> > >
> > > For natlangs the specification is learnt and known unconsciously. For
> > > authored conlangs, to author the conlang is to author the
> specification.
> > > But there are other sorts of conlang, such as Esperanto, where the
> > > originator sprinkles a few seeds from which sprout the first shoots of
> a
> > > garden grown by the speech community. Zamenhof's writings aren't a
> > > specification in the relevant sense (a full explication of the inner
> > > workings).
> > >
> > >
> > >> The idea that a language needs a
> > >> "specification" is what I call the "academic fallacy"
> > >
> > > "Academic" I will grant, if by "academic" we understand "dedicated to
> the
> > > quest for knowledge and understanding, especially of how things work".
> > > "Fallacy", I am more perplexed by. If a language needs a
> "specification",
> > > then presumably by "specification" we mean 'grammar', or better (in my
> > own
> > > term) 'glottonomy', i.e. the rules that generate the sentences of the
> > > language, i.e. the rules that match sentence forms to sentence
> meanings.
> > > Without that, how else might language work? Magic?
> > >
> > >
> > >> — nothing is real unless it can be "explained".
> > >
> > > I don't understand what this means here. I do think that the conlanger
> > > cannot claim to have invented a language, inner workings and all, if
> they
> > > have not explicitly specified it.
> > >
> > >
> > >> If I read a post on the internet and
> > >> decide that the author is not a native speaker of English, or that
> they
> > >> are uneducated, it is not because I've spotted that they've broken
> rule
> > >> 172c. It's like the way that a connoisseur can look at a painting and
> > >> say that it doesn't look like a genuine Constable.
> > >>
> > > If the author has used something that isn't actually a sentence of
> > English,
> > > then you have in effect spotted that they've broken Rule 172c. But it's
> > > also possible that the author has used a licit sentence of English, but
> > one
> > > that is outside the habits of the usage of native speakers: your
> > knowledge
> > > of usage, your mental corpus, allows you to recognize the oddity and
> > > alienness of that usage. IMO knowledge of usage is an extrinsic,
> > > peripheral, inessential part of knowledge of language; therefore I
> think
> > > the conlanger can claim to have invented a language even if they
> haven't
> > > invented the norms of its usage, tho the artlanger is to be all the
> more
> > > congratulated if they, as Padraic would aspire to, have indeed
> succeeded
> > in
> > > inventing the norms of the conlang's usage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Incidentally, the boundary between a model and a real thing can be
> > >> fluid. For example,
> > >> 1. The Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway uses scale-model locomotives
> > >> but runs a public service.
> > >> 2. A 7.5 inch-gauge garden railway is generally ridden on, but for
> fun.
> > >> 3. I once encountered a Gauge 1 garden railway whose owner made a
> point
> > >> of using it to transport produce from the vegetable garden to the
> > >> house. The guinea pig liked to ride on it, but she was expected to use
> > >> the cattle truck.
> > >>
> > > Exactly. I've said this in the original and subsequent posts. Models
> get
> > > their modelhood either by being nonworking, mimicking the outward shape
> > of
> > > what they model, or, as in the examples you mention, by being
> > miniaturized,
> > > simplified versions of what they model. Broadly speaking, artlangs are
> > > models of the former sort and (echt) loglangs (in a broadish sense that
> > > includes Unlws) are models of the latter sort.
> > >
> > > --And.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
>

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April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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