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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages (was: Re: Lighting Some Flames: Towards conlang artistry

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:40:15 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (272 lines)

> My point has, at least in
intent, been that conlangers don't author or invent (full, non-model)
languages; rather, they model them. That model can then be projected onto
unconscious L1 knowledge to unconsciously create some kind of more or less
elaborate pidgin language.

Well, I would still say that the conlanger has created the language; they
just did so a bit indirectly, with help from that unconscious L1
knowledge.  But I would also say that this is similar to saying that a
painter doesn't create a picture, but merely a model, which applied light
plus the viewer's eyes and brain turn into the actual picture.

So how does your model explain the ability of people with different L1's to
communicate in a constructed L2?



On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 3:51 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 1 June 2016 at 20:28, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Attempting to specify a language in the way And seems to want feels to
> me a
> > lot like trying to quantify consciousness, to the point that you have a
> > definite, better-than-Turing test to say "yes, this is a self-aware
> > entity."
> >
> > I'm skeptical we will ever get that for either consciousness or language,
> > nat- or con-. But even if we could, I have no idea what it has to do
> with a
> > language being "real".  Languages are real if you can communicate in
> them.
> > Heck, Esperanto has L1 speakers; I don't know how you get more real than
> > that.
> >
>
> Yes, one or two messages in this thread have introduced the notion of a
> "real" language, but (I think) none of mine have; there's been nothing I've
> wanted to say, in this thread, about realness. My point has, at least in
> intent, been that conlangers don't author or invent (full, non-model)
> languages; rather, they model them. That model can then be projected onto
> unconscious L1 knowledge to unconsciously create some kind of more or less
> elaborate pidgin language. This isn't to diss conlangers, it's rather just
> to better understand what it is they do.
>
> --And.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Pete Bleackley <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > The talk that Jim gave and you translated at LCC6 was the main
> > inspiration
> > > for this conlang.
> > >
> > > Pete Bleackley
> > > The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
> > > http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
> > > Emily Semantic Recommendation -
> https://emily-petebleackley.rhcloud.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tony Harris <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Sent: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 19:22
> > > Subject: Re: conlangs as model languages (was: Re: Lighting Some
> Flames:
> > > Towards conlang artistry
> > >
> > > This sounds actually somewhat like what Jim Hopkins and I do in Itlani,
> > > which we have been corresponding in for some time.  Not every message
> is
> > > in Itlani, and I'll admit I'm not truly what I would call fluent (I
> > > still have to look up more words than I'd like), but at least according
> > > to Jim I have managed to internalize the "spirit" or "flavor" of Itlani
> > > sufficiently that my use of it feels reasonably native, at least like
> > > that of a fluent L2 speaker.
> > >
> > > And while I don't often write really long emails because I'm just too
> > > lazy to work that much, we can generally communicate about anything we
> > > want to, politics, life events, health, family, cats, entertainment,
> > > spirituality, etc.
> > >
> > > So, is Itlani a "real" language?  Perhaps not by And's definition. But
> > > my Jim's, and mine, yes, it is.  And to be honest, since we're using it
> > > and enjoying it, I'm not sure either of us much cares if it meets some
> > > wider official definition of the term.
> > >
> > > Which, I think, is largely the point of conlanging anyway.  If the
> > > author is enjoying the art, investing themselves in it, and finding it
> > > emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually fulfilling, then I don't
> > > believe any other criteria is necessary.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 06/01/2016 02:05 PM, Pete Bleackley wrote:
> > > > A fluent speaker of a language has a mental model of that language,
> > > which enables them to express ideas in it and understand ideas
> expressed
> > in
> > > it. Such a model is learned by experience, the speaker is not
> consciously
> > > aware of it, and nobody has ever managed to explicitly describe one for
> > any
> > > language, natural or constructed.
> > > >
> > > > A description of a language, such as a conlanger or linguist might
> > > write, is not the same as such a model. However, with sufficient
> > practice,
> > > you could learn such a model, using the information in a good grammar
> to
> > > bootstrap the process.
> > > >
> > > > So, And, I have a challenge for you. Let us correspond with each
> other,
> > > offlist, in Khangaþyagon for a year, and see how fluent we become in
> it,
> > > and what else we learn in the process.
> > > >
> > > > Pete Bleackley
> > > > The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
> > > http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
> > > > Emily Semantic Recommendation -
> > https://emily-petebleackley.rhcloud.com
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Sent: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 17:54
> > > > Subject: Re: conlangs as model languages (was: Re: Lighting Some
> > Flames:
> > > Towards conlang artistry
> > > >
> > > > On 1 June 2016 at 17:14, David McCann <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:38:16 +0100
> > > >> And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I haven't actually read Zamenhof's writings, only the sixteen
> rules,
> > > >>> and shortish descriptions of E's grammar, but I know of no reason
> to
> > > >>> believe that Z miraculously managed to achieve a fuller
> specification
> > > >>> of his conlang than any other conlanger in history has; the
> > > >>> specification is the authored conlang. No conlang's specification
> to
> > > >>> date is both (i) sufficient to define the mapping between its
> > > >>> sentences' form and their meaning and (ii) not radically simplified
> > > >>> in comparison to natlangs.
> > > >> Zamenhof's writings *are* that specification. Over the course of a
> > > >> decade he consciously developed a vocabulary *and style* by
> > translating
> > > >> a varied selection of texts.
> > > >
> > > > For natlangs the specification is learnt and known unconsciously. For
> > > > authored conlangs, to author the conlang is to author the
> > specification.
> > > > But there are other sorts of conlang, such as Esperanto, where the
> > > > originator sprinkles a few seeds from which sprout the first shoots
> of
> > a
> > > > garden grown by the speech community. Zamenhof's writings aren't a
> > > > specification in the relevant sense (a full explication of the inner
> > > > workings).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> The idea that a language needs a
> > > >> "specification" is what I call the "academic fallacy"
> > > >
> > > > "Academic" I will grant, if by "academic" we understand "dedicated to
> > the
> > > > quest for knowledge and understanding, especially of how things
> work".
> > > > "Fallacy", I am more perplexed by. If a language needs a
> > "specification",
> > > > then presumably by "specification" we mean 'grammar', or better (in
> my
> > > own
> > > > term) 'glottonomy', i.e. the rules that generate the sentences of the
> > > > language, i.e. the rules that match sentence forms to sentence
> > meanings.
> > > > Without that, how else might language work? Magic?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> — nothing is real unless it can be "explained".
> > > >
> > > > I don't understand what this means here. I do think that the
> conlanger
> > > > cannot claim to have invented a language, inner workings and all, if
> > they
> > > > have not explicitly specified it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> If I read a post on the internet and
> > > >> decide that the author is not a native speaker of English, or that
> > they
> > > >> are uneducated, it is not because I've spotted that they've broken
> > rule
> > > >> 172c. It's like the way that a connoisseur can look at a painting
> and
> > > >> say that it doesn't look like a genuine Constable.
> > > >>
> > > > If the author has used something that isn't actually a sentence of
> > > English,
> > > > then you have in effect spotted that they've broken Rule 172c. But
> it's
> > > > also possible that the author has used a licit sentence of English,
> but
> > > one
> > > > that is outside the habits of the usage of native speakers: your
> > > knowledge
> > > > of usage, your mental corpus, allows you to recognize the oddity and
> > > > alienness of that usage. IMO knowledge of usage is an extrinsic,
> > > > peripheral, inessential part of knowledge of language; therefore I
> > think
> > > > the conlanger can claim to have invented a language even if they
> > haven't
> > > > invented the norms of its usage, tho the artlanger is to be all the
> > more
> > > > congratulated if they, as Padraic would aspire to, have indeed
> > succeeded
> > > in
> > > > inventing the norms of the conlang's usage.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Incidentally, the boundary between a model and a real thing can be
> > > >> fluid. For example,
> > > >> 1. The Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway uses scale-model
> locomotives
> > > >> but runs a public service.
> > > >> 2. A 7.5 inch-gauge garden railway is generally ridden on, but for
> > fun.
> > > >> 3. I once encountered a Gauge 1 garden railway whose owner made a
> > point
> > > >> of using it to transport produce from the vegetable garden to the
> > > >> house. The guinea pig liked to ride on it, but she was expected to
> use
> > > >> the cattle truck.
> > > >>
> > > > Exactly. I've said this in the original and subsequent posts. Models
> > get
> > > > their modelhood either by being nonworking, mimicking the outward
> shape
> > > of
> > > > what they model, or, as in the examples you mention, by being
> > > miniaturized,
> > > > simplified versions of what they model. Broadly speaking, artlangs
> are
> > > > models of the former sort and (echt) loglangs (in a broadish sense
> that
> > > > includes Unlws) are models of the latter sort.
> > > >
> > > > --And.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
> >
>



-- 
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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July 2009, Week 4
July 2009, Week 3
July 2009, Week 2
July 2009, Week 1
June 2009, Week 5
June 2009, Week 4
June 2009, Week 3
June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
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September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 3
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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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