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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages (was: Re: Lighting Some Flames: Towards conlang artistry

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 3 Jun 2016 23:40:31 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (147 lines)

On 3 June 2016 at 08:17, Pete Bleackley <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that And is something of a Platonist. He sees
> the mental processes underlying language as the Form of language, and such
> things as words and grammatical structures as the Matter which makes
> language manifest. In this paradigm, to create the Matter of language, but
> not the Form, is what And calls a model.
>
> I am more of an Aristotelian. We cannot perceive Form directly, only infer
> it from from observations of Matter. If we have specified a language well
> enough that somebody can learn it and use it, the Matter implies the Form,
> and if two people can hold a conversation in a conlang, that is sufficient
> evidence that the Form of the language exists in their minds.
>

I'm not sure if this is intended to be literal or metaphorical. If
metaphorical, I don't grock it. If literal, then yes I'm a Platonist, but
all Tongue (Langue) is Form, (And within the universe of Platonic Form,
there is a further distinction between, in Glossematics's terms,
'Substance', which typically has counterparts in Matter, and pure 'Form',
which doesn't. Glottonomy (as defined elsewhere in the thread) consists of
pure Form.) The model language (the authored conlang) is also platonic
form, and is a model because it describes just part of the full language.
So that doesn't match what you said.

Sorry if I'm being obtuse and have missed your point, serious or jocular.

--And.



> Having just used the terminology of Scholastic philosophy to discuss
> language, I must be a Speculative Grammarian!
>
> Pete Bleackley
> The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
> http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
> Emily Semantic Recommendation - https://emily-petebleackley.rhcloud.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 0:16
> Subject: Re: conlangs as model languages (was: Re: Lighting Some Flames:
> Towards conlang artistry
>
> > On Jun 2, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > Model organisms, for example, such as used
> > as stand-ins for humans in experiments where using humans is not
> > practical or not permitted, are still perfectly good organisms in
> > their own right.
>
> This is actually rather what I expected—that there was A definition of
> “model” that would make sense, even if it wasn’t the most common one the
> layperson who speaks English would know of. I still don’t think “model
> language” is a good term for general use, but this (and your example of
> Valaklwuuxa) show how it might be applicable to conlanging.
>
> > My feeling is that, whether or not it is possible to write down every
> > rule, doing so is irrelevant to the question of having "created a
> > language" or not. As discussed with respect to copyright, the
> > description of a language *is not* the language. Thus, whether or not
> > you have actually created a language, as opposed t "just a model"
> > which is not a real language, is totally independent of what kind of
> > description you have specified. A good description provides some proof
> > that you have made the thing, but it is not the thing.
> > Furthermore, coming up with the rules *consciously* is not a
> > requirement for creation, either. Unconscious discovery is considered
> > a valid form of creation in every other artistic field I know of, so
> > why not allow it in conlanging as well?
> > Thus, if someone can use a conlang to successfully communicate, then
> > we know that all of the necessary rules for mapping speech or writing
> > to thought and vice-versa do in fact exist, thus have in fact been
> > created where necessary, even if it was not done entirely consciously
> > and even if the glossopoet is incapable of describing them in detail.
> > Ergo, we can reasonably call that conlang a "real language", and
> > reasonably say that the conlanger has created a real language (even if
> > it is *also* a model in some sense).
>
> In light of this comment from And…
>
> > On Jun 2, 2016, at 3:12 AM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > I think no description of a nonloglangoid conlang or a natlang has yet
> come
> > remotely close to being a full working model, and seeking one would
> indeed
> > be a wild-goose chase for the artlanger who desires to emulate natlangs
> > rather than, as the loglanger does, build from first principles. So we
> > agree on that. My conclusion is that we should therefore understand
> > ourselves to be not inventing languages but modelling languages.
>
> I think I see the intersection here. In And’s view, while it is
> theoretically possible to write a full description of a language (nat- or
> con- doesn’t matter, as the above will attest), it’s not possible now. No
> material needs to be evaluated (again, nat- or con-), because if no one can
> even write a full description of English, then there’s no chance of doing
> so for a conlang. (Hopefully this reflects your opinion accurately, And?)
> As Logan points out, though, the description is not the language, so we can
> set this point aside entirely. (After all, just because no one has written
> a full description of English, it doesn’t mean that English isn’t a
> language. Same is true of every conlang.)
>
> Logan has brought up something that no one has said directly as of yet:
> Writing something down, while evidence of creation, is not necessarily the
> same thing as creating it. Personally, seeing Jim and Tony having a
> discussion in Itlani was a lot more convincing to me than any description
> (and after all, it’s not like the creator—or even a speaker—needs to be the
> one that writes the description. If that had to be the case, a lot of the
> grammars we have of non-English languages would be useless). There’s
> evidence of consistent grammatical features in all conlangs with any kind
> of corpus (even if it’s just a few relays, a Babel text, etc.), and I’ll
> wager not all of them are faithfully and fully described anywhere. It
> doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and the the conlanger didn’t create them.
>
> While it may be frustrating to evaluate something without evidence, I
> don’t think anyone has evidence that something that hasn’t been written
> down by a conlanger hasn’t been created—whether consciously or
> unconsciously. When it comes to unconscious creation, there’s a question of
> whether the conlanger is being guided by the “spirit” of the conlang (for
> lack of a better term) or their unconscious knowledge of their L1 or some
> mixture of that and a variety of L2s. I gather And would say it’s only the
> latter, but I think there isn’t evidence to make any such claim (unless the
> claim is that the only way to truly create a language is to never have been
> exposed to one and then to create one free of bias. If that’s the claim,
> there’s no point in having this discussion). Even so, it’s not as if that
> means it isn’t a conlang, or it isn’t a language. The same thing happens
> with speakers learning an L2, or even humans learning an L1 (drawing on
> assumptions that may be false based on the perceived systematicity of the
> material they engage with). Consequently, I say if someone can learn a
> language, someone can create one. In fact, it looks as if creating a
> language is easier than describing a language. O.O
>
> David Peterson
> LCS Member Since 2007
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.artoflanguageinvention.com/
>
> =================================
> Purchase The Art of Language Invention!
>
> http://bit.ly/conlang
> =================================
>

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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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March 2006, Week 3
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 1
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October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 1
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August 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
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June 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
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June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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