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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 1

CONLANG June 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 4 Jun 2016 00:33:16 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

On 2 June 2016 at 15:04, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 01.06.2016 22:56, David Peterson wrote:
>
>> (2) I don’t believe you have studied either an “authored” conlang or
>> “pidgin” conlang, as you call them, in enough detail to make any claims
>> about them or their descriptions.
>>
>
> Nor do I.


Why do you not? You know that I've had an interest in invented languages
for forty years, yet you believe that in that time I have accumulated
knowledge so vacuous that it does not permit me to make an informed claim
about one itself or its description? That's very harsh, Jörg!! I mean, I
confess to ignorance, yes, and to deep ignorance even, but to ignorance of
such totality I cannot, however deep the wells of humility I plumb, lay
claim. Or did you mean something different & more charitable...?


> I don't know how many languages, nat or con, And has studied, but I seem
> to remember himself saying that he knows only one at any reasonable depth:
> English.
>

English and (formerly) Lojban.


>
> Consequently, a claim that something like Esperanto is less “deep” than a
>> natural language leaves me cold. I don’t think you know Esperanto (not
>> merely as a language, but as a linguistic community/phenomenon) well enough
>> to make any claims about it, other than hypothetical ones. And I think that
>> goes double for “authored” conlangs. Thus, I remain unconvinced.
>>
>
> Esperanto certainly has a shorter history than natlangs: while natlangs
> evolved over thousands of years, Esperanto is less than two centuries old.
> But natlangs do not just aggregate features over their history, they also
> lose much (which is why reconstructing ancestral languages such as
> Proto-Indo-European is so difficult). There is certainly some kind of limit
> to the complexity of a human language: beyond that limit, human children no
> longer can cope with the language and will inadvertably simplify it. Most
> conlangs are probably less complex than the average natlang (indeed, in IAL
> circles, it is the main argument for an artificial language and against
> using a widespread natlang such as English, that the artificial language is
> simpler and thus easier to learn [which may or may not be the case -
> "simple" and "easy" are different notions]), but when a conlang is used, it
> *will* aggregate some complexity that wasn't in the initial design.
>

Lojban felt to me like an object I could hold in my hand and examine in its
totality. English feels like a place, bigger than me, that I inhabit, most
of it is deeply familiar, but I can look close up at any bit of it and find
new details I hadn't noticed before, or climb to an unfamiliar vantage
point and see new patterns and regularities I hadn't noticed before, and I
am always coming across new nooks and alleys I hadn't previously
encountered; and for all its higgledypiggledyness, the longer I study it,
the more I feel I can descry its hidden foundations and an underlying order
therein. That's my experience of English's 'depth'. If it was somehow
possible to measure depth, I would wager that Esperanto is among the
deepest of conlangs but is less deep than natlangs, but I would not wager
more than I could comfortably afford to lose... I have no further arguments
to support my wager, nor to suggest that depth is measurable.


--And.

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