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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  June 2016, Week 2

CONLANG June 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages

From:

Christa Hansberry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 8 Jun 2016 23:06:12 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (131 lines)

>I don't agree that what we're doing is "modelling", but yes, langue &
parole are of course two keys. (And thank God Joerg had a succinct and
understandable definition of these two terms on his website!)

Got a link? I think part of my difficulty understanding this discussion is
that I'd never heard/seen those words before in my life...

-Christa

*Verbing AWESOMES language!*

On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 10:17 PM, Padraic Brown <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:04:04 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> tqaiye!
>
> So, I go away for a week and the whole place explodes into wonderful
> discussion! I've read much of this with interest, but really will just
> clarify a couple points from earlier on, when I was still an active
> participant...
>
> >>> Now that I think of it, I no longer take a middling position between
> >>> Padraic (who considers use - either actual use or at least potential
> >>> usability - to be a major criterion in conlanging) and And (who sees
> >>> conlangs as scale models for which usability is not an issue), but side
> >>> more or less with Padraic (though I'd rather say that potential
> usability
> >>> matters more than actual use).
> >>>
> >> This completely misrepresents both Padraic and me: it may describe your
> own
> >> views, but it wholly fails to accurately describe Padraic's (I think)
> and
> >> mine. Padraic feels that, according to his aesthetic, the highest form
> of
> >> conlang artistry models not only langue but also parole. Completely
> >> orthogonally, I think that the existence of (nonfictional) parole is not
> >> criterial for Full languagehood. Neither Padraic (afaik) nor I had
> opined
> >> about usability.
> >
> >I apologize for misrepresenting both of you (if I actually did). But I
> >don't see how Padraic "did not opine about usability" when he pointed
> >out the importance of _parole_ - writing texts in a conlang certainly is
> >a use of the conlang, and requires at least a certain degree of
> >usability. But it is true that actual use is not criterial. What I feel
> >necessary for a conlang to be well-designed, though, is that it *can* be
> >used, or at least developed further to a usable state.
>
> I think this is the pertinent quote: "Thus the real art of the glossopoet
> is to
> use his creation --- to decide what the conlang is for; to decide how it
> is used;
> to make poems and plays and stories and the equivalent of dirty limericks.
> To
> come up with entirely new genres and write in them. In short, the real art
> of
> a conlanger, from my perspective, is to breathe life into & through the
> conlang.
> The conlang becomes my flute and with it I can make something that
> expresses
> what is in my heart. "
>
> I don't disagree about "potential usability" being a factor, but unlike
> Joerg, I
> understand that as merely a step along the journey towards "actual use"
> (and
> furthermore, that this is but a step along the way towards a deeper use
> that is
> at the heart of glossopoesy as art). For me, potential usability is like a
> lump of
> clay or some crayons boxed up in the art supply shop -- they await the
> exercise
> of use before they can fulfill that potential. Same with a conlang.
>
> And has it close to right when he said of what I had written: "the highest
> form of
> conlang artistry models not only langue but also parole." I don't agree
> that what
> we're doing is "modelling", but yes, langue & parole are of course two
> keys. (And
> thank God Joerg had a succinct and understandable definition of these two
> terms
> on his website!) Obviously, without langue (the internal map), parole (the
> external
> manifestation) can not come to be.
>
> But for me, the parole bit isn't just any "external manifestation".
> Translation
> exercises and random example sentences are certainly fun, and while I
> daresay I
> could ask for directions to the train station in Queranaran, the art of
> the glossopoet
> for me is in bringing out something deep in the heart, unlocking some
> secret, giving
> shape to some hidden desire. A nother "level" of use if you take my
> meaning. For
> example, I wouldn't consider the English sentence "Which way to the train
> station,
> sir?" to be an example of English used artistically. However, the sentence
> "Pardon
> me boys, is that the Chattanooga Choo-Choo?" is most definitely!
>
> I don't fully agree with "parole is not criterial for Full languagehood".
> I'm sure we
> have neither langue nor parole for Indo-European, yet we assume it existed
> and we
> assume our linguistic ancestors spoke it.  In the world of natural
> languages, I can
> hardly conceive of a language that people know, and therefore have a map
> of it in
> their heads, but never use it -- not even to teach their children! A full
> language
> has both the theoretical bits and the practical.
>
> On the other hand, a constructed language may certainly have langue sans
> parole.
> We do this all the time with phonological and grammatical sketchlangs.
>
> Lastly, no need to apologise! I don't feel especially misrepresented. I
> certainly could
> have gone into greater detail; and would have at an earlier time if I
> weren't headed
> off on vacation. After all, I did indeed opine about "usability" -- just
> not usability in
> the ordinary, mundane sense of the word, nor potential usability.
>

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