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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 2

CONLANG June 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: I make real languages, and you do too (was: conlangs as model languages)

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:28:06 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (165 lines)

[I've deleted the original CCs, but add them back if appropriate.]

On 13 June 2016 at 11:29, Sai <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Recently*,


> * Note: this was composed 12 days ago, and does not reflect any posts
since then. I was hoping to improve it to an essay proper, but stalled
out, so decided to just post what I have.

In my response, I've taken into account refinements and clarifications that
have occurred in the last 12 days.


> And Rosta — and much earlier, Jeffrey Hennning — described
> conlangs as, at most, "model" languages.
>
>
> To me, "model" here can mean two things:
> a) a model *of* some reference, trying to approximate it, and/or
> b) a not entirely functional miniature.
>

I said they're model languages in either of two specific ways, each
compatible with wider sense of "model". So for example, if a model X can
get its modelhood by any of criteria A, B, C, D or E, I am claiming that
conlangs are model languages by criteria A or B, but am making no claim
about whether they are model languages by criteria C, D or E, so
demonstrating that conlangs aren't models by criteria C, D or E would be
irrelevant to my claim.

So the claim is that the authored or invented part of a conlang is model
like in these two ways:

1. It's functional (i.e. with working internals) but miniaturized and
simplified relative to Full languages such as our mother tongues are.
Conlangs of this sort are loglangs, such as Unlws.
2. It models, possibly with exquisite detail and verisimilitude, the
externals of a Full language but not the internals.

Where interlocutors have understood my claim, I think the contentious point
is whether it's reasonable fto claim that X has invented a full working
language if X has invented the externals but not the internals, but by
adding the externals to internals unconsciously sourced from elsewhere a
full working language results. I can't see any way to argue for a
definitive Yes or No to that question, but hopefully everybody should be
able to see the issue -- to see that the claim to have invented a full
working language is questionable, even if in the face of questioning you
would still argue the claim to be true.

 > By And's expressed view, a conlang is "model" for a few reasons.

>
> First, conlangs have undefined behavior, when judged by their
> documentation. But this true of any natlang as well — the difference
> is only as a matter of degree, not of quality.
>

And of course natlangs aren't authored or invented, either. I say that the
authored or invented part of a conlang consists of what you call the
documentation (plus whatever the author/inventor had clear in their mind
without having found the time to externalize it). But I *haven't* (unless
unintentionally due to hasty or incompetent expression) said that the
uninvented, unauthored part of conlang is a model.

Second, conlangs' undefined behavior is often implemented by a given
> interpreter in ways that borrow heavily from the defined behavior or
> consensus undefined behavior or that interpreter's more familiar (e.g.
> native) languages. But this too is true of any natlang as well; second
> language learners will generally apply what they already use to what
> they're learning, unless overridden by clear documentation or adopted
> consensus.
>

Although this is not relevant to my original point about modelhood,
subsequent discussion in the thread has taken into consideration the nature
of the unauthored, uninvented part of the conlang, and like yours and
Alex's, my (inexpert) hypothesis is that the unauthored, uninvented part is
likely to come into being by the same process as happens with L2 learning.


> So it is again only a distinction of degree, not of kind, to say that
> conlangs are more "model" than natlangs because their speakers import
> undefined behavior implementations from other languages.
>

Perhaps this is so. But nobody has (intentionally) claimed that conlangs
are more "model" than natlangs because their speakers import undefined
behavior implementations from other languages. I've said that some sorts of
authored conlangs -- that is, the authored parts of some sorts of conlang
-- model, without constituting, Full languages because their actual or
almost-actual documentation fails to specify the internals


>
> And describes UNLWS as one of the least model languages he knows —
> essentially, because it deviates so drastically from extant languages
> that it gives the appearance of having less undefined behavior.
>

What I said was "Of conlangs I know of, Unlws is probably closest to being
a working model in its documentation", i.e. it's not the least model, but
rather is the most model of the Working Model type.


> This appearance is false. UNLWS has plenty of undefined behavior, both
> because Alex & I suck at documenting our language, and because there
> is (very intentionally) a great deal of it that we punt to resolution
> via Grice… which is not reliable inter-speaker.
>

You suck at documentation (but excel in comparison to me), but if I ask you
how to say such and such in Unlws, you know the answer, and it's
compositional, and the inner workings are not shrouded in mystery but are
clear. If somebody locked you and Alex in a room for a couple of weeks and
said "Don't come out until you have explicitly documented for Unlws the
rules for mapping predicate--argument structures to complex squiggles" then
you could do it, with considerable effort, but without inventing more than
you've already invented. (I'm not saying you wouldn't take the opportunity
to invent new stuff; I'm saying that even if you didn't invent new stuff
but just documented what you've invented so far, there'd be pretty full
internals.)


> In short, if Mandarin as learned by an native English speaker is a
> full language, so is Toki Pona.
>

I'd introduced the term Full language in a vague but nevertheless technical
sense of having the amplitude, the richness, the grandeur of prototypical
natlangs (by which I mean mother tongues) -- of having what even a fully
working loglang lacks. I'd see three degrees of fullness:
Fullest: L1s
Less full: L2 versions of a language that is L1 of a large proportion of
its speech community -- e.g. Mandarin as learnt by an L1 English speaker.
Least full: the rest, including Toki Pona



> Either all languages are "model", or none are.


In this reply, I haven't really engaged with the criteria for modelhood
that you've been using, since I assume that we're discussing modelhood
under the criteria I had outlined (since it was me that made the claim
about model languages).


> Since the distinction is vacuous, let's just ditch the pejorative.
>

A lot of contributions to the discussion (but none of mine) have seemed to
find pejoration in my contention that authored/invented conlangs are model
languages. I'm not sure how much of that is due to the contributions having
misunderstood my claim, but at any rate I don't see any pejoration in my
claim. Yes, I have said that although we not unreasonably might loosely
describe conlanging as 'language invention', we should be aware that the
direct product of our invention is not a Full language but rather a model
language; but that has been carefully reasoned and justified, and is
intended and presented as an attempt to describe reality, not to make value
judgements.

--And.

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