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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 2

CONLANG June 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 10 Jun 2016 17:38:17 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (231 lines)

On 10/06/2016 01:48, And Rosta wrote:
> On 9 June 2016 at 10:40, R A Brown wrote:
>
>> On 09/06/2016 00:36, And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>>>> a conlang is a language either (1) if its inner
>>>>> workings are fully specified, in the case of the
>>>>>  authored conlang,
>>>>>
>>>>> How many natural languages meet that
>>>>> requirement?
>>>>
>>> None, as I've noted several times already...
>>>
>> So why must the creator/ inventor/ author (or
>> whatever) of a conlang meet a requirement that, on your
>> own admission, no natlang meets?  This is what puzzles
>> some of us.
>
> I think I'd misunderstood your previous question. If by
> 'specification' we mean 'langue', then of course
> natlangs have fully specified inner workings, but that
> specification is (to date) only implicit. When you asked
> "How many natural languages meet that requirement", I
> thought you were asking how many languages have an
> *explicit* specification, which is the requirement I lay
> upon the authored conlang.

You have not misunderstood me.  That is what I was asking.

[snip]
> In other words, in order to invent or author a language,
>  one must be able to make explicit its inner workings,
> which in natural, uninvented unauthored, languages are
> (as of 2016) only implicit.

Possibly as off any date - but that's another matter.

In an earlier email you wrote:
"The platonic bit is the idea that langue can exist without
parole; langue exists in the platonic universe of ideas."

You are happy enough to allow that for natural languages,
yet you require a language creator/inventor/author (or
whatever) to make her/his langue explicit.

What I did not understand is why the langue of, say, Quenya
or Sindarin may not also exist in the platonic universe of
ideas (assuming, for the sake of argument, the existence of
such a world). Why, on the one hand was it held that
English, Swahili or Tamil are languages and that their
langue is implicit and exists in the platonic universe of
ideas, but the langue of Quenya does not?

[snip]
>>
>> This is not what I understand by a pidgin.  However,
>> all it seems to say to me is that if a conlang
>> attracts a group of people who actually use the
>> language for communication (I assume both spoken and
>> written and produced some literature) then it become a
>> language. So Volapük, Esperanto, Klingon, Lojban are
>> languages? But not, I guess, Spelin, Bolak, Euroling,
>> TAKE, Outidic etc. etc.
>>
>
> There are two Klingons, Klingon1, which is authored,
> explicit, internally incomplete, and not a language, and
> Klingon2, which is the langue implicit in Klingon parole,
> which is pidgin, implicit, internally complete and is a
> language.

Which confirms what I wrote.  If a conlang attracts users
who speak and write it among themselves, lo and behold the
conlang, which in your definitions had no langue and was,
therefore, not a language, has now become a language with an
implicit langue.  Which merely seems to say:
(a) If a conlang has no parole and no explicitly defined
langue, it ain't a language;
(b) If, however, it develops parole then it acquires an
implicit langue and is a language.

If this is so, then in whatever universe of ideas its langue
exists in, it is not Platonic world of pre-existent Ideas/Forms.

> There is Outidic1, which is authored, explicit,
> internally incomplete, and not a language. But there is
> no Outidic2 that is the langue implicit in (nonexistent)
> Outidic parole, which would be pidgin, implicit,
> internally complete and a language.

Obviously translations into the language by the author do
not constitute parole, otherwise Outidic would be a
language.  But I have discovered someone out there in the
cyber-universe of the Internet who maintains an Outidic
lexicon, so obviously at least one person is interested  :)

So if I bothered to attract a community of users, Outidic
would be transformed into a language.  Ummm ;)

>> But that's just historical accident.  All are
>> potentially capable of being used.
>>
>
> Yes, but that's not the criterion.

I know.  But this is what it boils down to, doesn't it?

>> I do not understand why this narrow definition is
>> termed 'platonic.'

As far as I can see, it isn't.

[snip]
>>>>
>>> The platonic bit is the idea that langue can exist
>>> without parole; langue exists in the platonic
>>> universe of ideas.
>>>
>> Does it?

Clearly not, because you state above that Outidic does not
have langue, and that 'Klingon2' has langue "which is ...
implicit in Klingon parole."  It may 'exist' in 'the
universe of ideas', whatever that is, but what confused me
was calling it Platonic.

>> The _langue_ ~ _parole_ distinction is due to the Swiss
>> linguist and semiotician, Ferdinand Mongin de Saussure,
>> not to Plato.
>>
>> AIUI langue is the internal, arrangement and
>> relationship of rules understood by a social group.
>
> [...] Not sure what relevance this has to Plato.
>
> There are (in my terms) 'platonic' (or 'cognitive') and
> 'semiotic' conceptions of langue.

While your above uses of langue may be cognitive, it is IMO
misleading to call them 'platonic.'  As it was Saussure who
coined the term _langue_, I think it would have been helpful
to have made it clear that your use of langue does not have
a semiotic meaning.

> On the 'platonic'/'cognitive' conception, langue exists
> in the realm of ideas;

"realm of ideas" is vague.  Does it have an existence except
in a human mind?

> langue is primary and parole is the usage of langue.

Which I now understand to be what you mean.  Though if
Klingon has implicit langue only when it has parole since,
in your own words, "Klingon2, which is the langue implicit
in Klingon parole which is pidgin, implicit, internally
complete and is a language", I wonder about the the use of
primary and secondary here.

If langue were truly Platonic then we could consider J.R.R.
Tolkien to have been discovering the Form of Quenya (i.e.
its pre-existent langue), similarly with Sindarin.  In fact
'language creators' do sometimes speak of themselves as
_discovering_ the different forms of the language  ;)

More interestingly, perhaps one could chart the history of
Novial from its first appearance in 1928 down to its demise
in the 1940 and the interesting changes made to the language
by its author and the small, but real community of Novial
users as an example whereby a community through dialect
process was working towards the true pre-existent Form of
Novial   :)

I should point out, that it is not a belief I hold   ;)

[snip]
> The term _platonic_ (small P) is here used in the sense
> of 'pertaining to the realm of ideas' rather than in the
>  sense of 'pertaining to Plato' (or even to Plato's
> theory of Forms). (In the very unlikely event that you
> are unfamiliar with this sense of 'platonic', look up
> 'mathematical platonism' for an example of it;

I have looked it up; and what is the first thing I find?
"Platonism about mathematics (or mathematical platonism) is
the metaphysical view that there are abstract mathematical
objects *whose existence is independent of us and our
language, thought, and practices*. Just as electrons and
planets exist independently of us, so do numbers and sets.
And just as statements about electrons and planets are made
true or false by the objects with which they are concerned
and these objects' perfectly objective properties, so are
statements about numbers and sets. *Mathematical truths are
therefore discovered, not invented*."

Emphasis is mine. Plato would have agreed with this and it
is what I understand by Platonism.

> it is a synonym of 'realist' in the metaphysical sense.)

The only problem, as I see it, is that different thinkers
seem to have different ideas as to what metaphysical realism
is.  The Wikipedia entry on philosophic realism has sections
on: Platonic realism, Medieval realism, The Scottish School
of Common Sense Realism, Naïve realism, Scientific realism,
and Aesthetic realism.  So IMO saying that your use of
'platonist' is synonymous with 'realist' in the metaphysical
sense is not helpful without more precise definition.

[snip]
>>
>
> You may answer your question as you wish.

Thank you.

> My point is that the authors of Quenya, Sindarin, Spelin,
> Bolak etc. have not authored or invented full inner
> workings of those conlangs, because the authors did not,
> and were not able to, make full inner workings explicit.
> I will allow that the authors may have originated, and
> hence, in a sense, 'created', a language replete with
> implicit full inner workings, but not that they have
> authored or invented one.

Language creators, but not authors.  A language creator is
good enough for me.

Ray.

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January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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