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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 2

CONLANG June 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: THEORY langue. competence etc. (longish)

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:07:49 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (121 lines)

On 13 June 2016 at 14:48, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 13/06/2016 14:14, And Rosta wrote:
>
>> On 13 June 2016 at 10:48, R A Brown
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> From the above it would appear that langue and
>>> competence are _abstractions_ and that the only way
>>> they can be abstracted is from actual _use_ of a
>>> language by its speakers (and writers).  Therefore, it
>>> seems to me, that both langue/competence and
>>> parole/performance are interdependent.  I cannot see
>>> how either langue or competence can exist in_vacuo
>>> without parole or performance.
>>>
>>> So in the case of a conlanger who creates no parole,
>> would you say that what they have created cannot, in the
>> absence of parole, be counted as langue?
>>
>
> BUT - I am not here talking about conlangs, but about
> _language_ generally.  The quotes came from dictionaries by
> two respected linguists and concerned language.
>
> I want to understand what _langue_, parole, competence,
> performance_ or any other bit of linguistic terminology
> means in relation to languages generally.  That's why I
> began a new thread.  I did not want a rehash of past
> arguments.  I want to get a better idea of how these terms
> are used by linguists generally in linguistic theory - not
> specifically with reference to conlangs.


I asked my question because what you had previously said seemed to pertain
more narrowly to natlangs in particular rather than to languages more
generally (which would include conlangs). Linguists in linguistic theory
concern themselves only with natlangs, but us conlangers, with our perhaps
broader conception of the limits of languagehood, seek a terminology and
conceptual apparatus that will extend beyond natlangs.


> 1. Have I got more or less the difference between
>>> Saussure's _langue_ and linguistic notion of
>>> _competence_?
>>>
>>>
>> Broadly, yes, but it's also the case that: * You
>> describe only one sort of conception of langue (the one I
>> called 'semiotic').
>>
>
> I am basing what I said on Crystal. I thought that was
> crystal clear   ;)
>

Right. Your reading of what Crystal says is a legitimate reading, but not
the only one. That is, the standard definition, which Crystal gives, is
compatible with either interpretation.


> * 'Competence' is ill-defined. To what
>
>> extent does it include knowledge of usage? To what
>> extent does it include episodic memory of usage? To what
>> extent does it include psycholinguistic processing
>> mechanisms?
>>
>
> OK - so both Crystal and Trask have not defined it well.
> But please do not ask _me_ these questions. *I myself wish
> to know* - obviously I could not have made myself clear,
> when I wrote:
> "There are professional linguists and and people with
> academic qualifications in matters linguistic on this list.
>  This aged amateur linguist (and maybe some not so ancient
> members) would welcome their observations, hoping they will
> not leave me (and them) confused."
>
> That was not meant to be Socratic irony.  I was genuinely
> seeking enlightenment.


The questions I posed are ones that have to be answered in order for the
term 'competence' to be adequate, but it is often unclear what answer users
of the term would give to those questions, and it's quite likely they'd not
all give the same answers.



> 2. If the only way of knowing either langue or
>>> competence is through the surface use of language,
>>> whether by individuals or by the community as a whole,
>>> are not langue and/or competence changing
>>> abstractions, and are not (assuming the dichotomies)
>>> langue and parole interdependent, and competence and
>>> performance also interdependent.
>>>
>>> 3. Are these truly dichotomies?
>>>
>>> There are professional linguists and and people with
>>> academic qualifications in matters linguistic on this
>>> list. This aged amateur linguist (and maybe some not
>>> so ancient members) would welcome their observations,
>>> hoping they will not leave me (and them) confused   ;)
>>>
>>>
>> I think that for each of Q2 and Q3, one can argue for a
>> Yes or a No answer.
>>
>
> Sort of what I feared    :(
>
> Is there any sort of consensus among linguists?


Not a single consensus, but you can use some of these issues to map a kind
of 'theory space' and locate various opposing consensuses within that space.

--And.

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