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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  June 2016, Week 2

CONLANG June 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Category theory, PCA, and demotic cuneiform

From:

Siva Kalyan <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:42:27 +1000

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

text/plain (99 lines)

Re your projects (which I’m always excited by):

1. Was Unlws in any way inspired by category theory? (And is there a category-theoretic formalism for it?) It definitely looks similar to the notion of an “olog” (or “ontology log”) as presented in David Spivak’s “Category Theory for the Sciences” (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olog). (Or maybe I’m just seeing category theory everywhere because I’m currently trying to learn it—just starting to struggle with Yoneda's Lemma.)

2. Is there a description of how your current phonology generator works? Also, for procedurally generating a grammatical description, I recently had the idea of doing PCA on a typological database of binary features, then taking a random point in feature space and projecting it onto the subspace found by the PCA (and then rounding all fractional feature values or something). I have in fact done such a PCA (with a database much bigger than WALS), and could share it with you if you’re interested.

3. I notice that for your cuneiform English orthography, you’ve been using the classical Sumerian shapes. For your “demotic cuneiform", you’d probably want to use the simplified Neo-Assyrian style, as seen in fonts such as Assurbanipal (http://www.hethport.uni-wuerzburg.de/cuneifont/download/Assurbanipal.zip).

Siva

> On 14 Jun 2016, at 9:32 AM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> Long time since we had a lunatic survey!
> 
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:15:43 -0400, Gabriel Brinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> Who are you? 
> 
> Alex Fink, with And one of your friendly list duumvirate.  29, though I had to double-check (that's one of those white lie ages, right?).  Lecturer ~= assistant professor in math(s).  Gay, right-handed, peri-Lithuanian on my mother's side, shaves almost frequently.  Not good at introductions.
> 
>> What are you working on? 
> 
> I've not enough time for any project to be on the front-burner at the moment.  Bigger projects include
> * with my partner Sai -- also of this list, though he's fairly quiet here anymore -- Unlws <s.ai/nlws/>, a mostly-loglang designed for maximal goodness of fit to the written page, in particular dispensing with speakability and restriction of the syntax to a tree structure.
> * a long-term ambition to procedurally generate descriptions of conlangs, which if I'm lucky wil be done in mere decades.  Currently working on the phonology generator v2 after too many dissatisfactions with my earlier one <http://000024.org/cgi-bin/gleb.cgi>.
> * a project I haven't actually mentioned here yet (bad!) to reshape cuneiform into a decent form for pen and paper, mock-evolutionarily, and an (ahistorical) mode for writing English to go with it.  I should just cave and scan at least the syllabaries, though I have a perfectionist strain which jeers at settling for that and not making nice vector graphics.
> 
> Beyond that, parts of sketches, of a phonology or some syntactic machinery or what have you, will pop into my head unbidden once every month or three, and those will sometimes occupy me for a week or a month at a time.
> 
>> What's your L1? 
> 
> English.  Canadian English, natively, but magpieish towards syntactico-lexical features of other dialects.
> 
>> Your L2, L3, etc? 
> 
> Heh heh.  Eight years of French in school left me, well, with half-decent reading competence but execrable production.  Sai always says I know lots of languages but he confuses "knowing" with "knowing trivia about".
> 
>> What do you want from a conlang? Naturalism or philosophical compatibility or usability? 
> 
> Often naturalism, of which I have a demanding definition that's gotten the label "statistical" naturalism here.  Statistical naturalism strives to produce languages sampled from the space of all human languages with the probability of each feature, or combination of features, matching the probability of finding it in a randomly sampled language from a random parallel world.  Diachrony is an essential part of a complete statistical breakfast.
> 
> My second-most-worn hat might be thought-experimentish, trying to take some linguistic system on one channel (e.g. speech) and see how well I can conform it to another (e.g. food, not that I've done that one yet).
> 
>> Do you have a language crush, whether nat or con? 
> 
> "Crush" is too strong a word.  But it changes all the time; whatever I'm reading about.
> 
>> Who do you look up to? Tolkien or St. Hildegard von Bingen or someone more modern?
> 
> Many.  Roger Mills was one.
> 
>> Do you put your language in a fictional context? 
> 
> In theory yes.  I suppose I could make up a notion of statistical naturalism of concultures.  To avoid treading too far into the impossible (conbiology!) or the fantastic (is that sad?) I'd want to sample from something like alternate histories with point(s) of divergence on the order of hundreds of thousands of years ago, so that we get biologically modern humans but no meaningful correlations with any historical culture.  ("Point(s)" -- at that distance, the butterfly effect means it doesn't matter what or how many the points are.)  Certainly I wouldn't want to set a fictional naturalistic language on Earth in this timeline (or "*here*", as we say).  
> 
> In practice I'm the opposite of a novelist, and my good conculturing ideas are few and far between.  
> 
>> Are you down with nouns, or are you a verb nerb (alternatively, if you can't abide "nerb," and i wouldn't blame you, i'll accept "in lerb with verbs")? 
> 
> Yes!  But I've never made a major effort with a verb as omnishambolic as I'd like.  Something like Athabascan, or better yet Ket without even so many categories but still just as messy a set of exponences.  Person and tense marking in like three different places each, and which one(s) you use is mostly idiosyncratic!  Bipartite stems!  ... well, I guess I have done bipartite stems, in my Sabasasaj, but that's still on the whole too tidy.
> 
>> Are you an armchair or faculty-office-chair linguist (whatever kind of chair _that_ is)? 
> 
> Faculty office chair, yeah; linguist, not by vocation anyhow.
> 
>> Have you just finished, oh idk, defending a Master's thesis? :D 
> 
> In math in the US, in the normal case, one skips straight from the bachelor's to the PhD.  (Public congrats to Logan!)
> 
>> Reference grammars or texts and translations? 
> 
> The former.
> 
>> Sounds or structures? 
> 
> Heck, even phonology isn't sounds!  (as we ritually remind Gary every couple years.)  But sounds are good too.
> 
>> Grammar or lexicon?? 
> 
> Not so obvious where the division is.  A good lexicon with enough idiosyncracies (such as might merit mention in the grammar) beats a large one any day.  My largest lexicon to date has had ten gross entries; I dunno how to count the size of a grammar.
> 
>> Coke or Pepsi?! (These are the hard-hitting questions.)
> 
> Tea, thanks, no sugar.  Though I try to avoid using caffeine enough for it to start having diminished effects.
> 
>> How did you get into this? 
> 
> Ever since anklebiterhood I've been kind of annoyed at times when people ignore arbitrariness of the sign (puns being an example, excepting rare truly-clever ones).  No, I don't remember how I realised arbitrariness of the sign was a thing.  One time, after a fit of this feeling, my sister and I were playing at being cats, and I realised cats wouldn't speak English, I'd better put something else in its place.  And off I was.  That wasn't the first glimmer of interest in things linguistic: my parents had already noticed and given me Nakanishi's _Writing Systems of the World_, and it must have been from there or something that I realised that languages had their own phonological inventories, 'cause my can language had quite a restrictive one.
> 
>> How did you find this group? 
> 
> I don't remember!  (My standard snarky nonanswer is "if I remembered metadata like that I'd have half as much space for the object-level data".)  I also found Mark Rosenfelder's board back when it was a homebrew web form; one may have pointed me to the other.  I do remember lurking for many months before making my presence known.
> 
>> And what drives you to continue making languages? 
> 
> You know, that's a hard one.  Will have to ruminate.
> 
> Alex, up too late

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April 2006, Week 1
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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February 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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