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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 2

CONLANG June 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: conlangs as model languages

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 8 Jun 2016 23:17:13 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (75 lines)

On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:04:04 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

tqaiye!

So, I go away for a week and the whole place explodes into wonderful discussion! I've read much of this with interest, but really will just clarify a couple points from earlier on, when I was still an active participant...

>>> Now that I think of it, I no longer take a middling position between
>>> Padraic (who considers use - either actual use or at least potential
>>> usability - to be a major criterion in conlanging) and And (who sees
>>> conlangs as scale models for which usability is not an issue), but side
>>> more or less with Padraic (though I'd rather say that potential usability
>>> matters more than actual use).
>>>
>> This completely misrepresents both Padraic and me: it may describe your own
>> views, but it wholly fails to accurately describe Padraic's (I think) and
>> mine. Padraic feels that, according to his aesthetic, the highest form of
>> conlang artistry models not only langue but also parole. Completely
>> orthogonally, I think that the existence of (nonfictional) parole is not
>> criterial for Full languagehood. Neither Padraic (afaik) nor I had opined
>> about usability.
>
>I apologize for misrepresenting both of you (if I actually did). But I
>don't see how Padraic "did not opine about usability" when he pointed
>out the importance of _parole_ - writing texts in a conlang certainly is
>a use of the conlang, and requires at least a certain degree of
>usability. But it is true that actual use is not criterial. What I feel
>necessary for a conlang to be well-designed, though, is that it *can* be
>used, or at least developed further to a usable state.

I think this is the pertinent quote: "Thus the real art of the glossopoet is to 
use his creation --- to decide what the conlang is for; to decide how it is used; 
to make poems and plays and stories and the equivalent of dirty limericks. To 
come up with entirely new genres and write in them. In short, the real art of 
a conlanger, from my perspective, is to breathe life into & through the conlang. 
The conlang becomes my flute and with it I can make something that expresses 
what is in my heart. "

I don't disagree about "potential usability" being a factor, but unlike Joerg, I
understand that as merely a step along the journey towards "actual use" (and 
furthermore, that this is but a step along the way towards a deeper use that is
at the heart of glossopoesy as art). For me, potential usability is like a lump of 
clay or some crayons boxed up in the art supply shop -- they await the exercise 
of use before they can fulfill that potential. Same with a conlang.

And has it close to right when he said of what I had written: "the highest form of 
conlang artistry models not only langue but also parole." I don't agree that what
we're doing is "modelling", but yes, langue & parole are of course two keys. (And
thank God Joerg had a succinct and understandable definition of these two terms
on his website!) Obviously, without langue (the internal map), parole (the external
manifestation) can not come to be.

But for me, the parole bit isn't just any "external manifestation". Translation
exercises and random example sentences are certainly fun, and while I daresay I
could ask for directions to the train station in Queranaran, the art of the glossopoet 
for me is in bringing out something deep in the heart, unlocking some secret, giving
shape to some hidden desire. A nother "level" of use if you take my meaning. For
example, I wouldn't consider the English sentence "Which way to the train station,
sir?" to be an example of English used artistically. However, the sentence "Pardon
me boys, is that the Chattanooga Choo-Choo?" is most definitely!

I don't fully agree with "parole is not criterial for Full languagehood". I'm sure we
have neither langue nor parole for Indo-European, yet we assume it existed and we 
assume our linguistic ancestors spoke it.  In the world of natural languages, I can
hardly conceive of a language that people know, and therefore have a map of it in
their heads, but never use it -- not even to teach their children! A full language
has both the theoretical bits and the practical.

On the other hand, a constructed language may certainly have langue sans parole.
We do this all the time with phonological and grammatical sketchlangs.

Lastly, no need to apologise! I don't feel especially misrepresented. I certainly could
have gone into greater detail; and would have at an earlier time if I weren't headed
off on vacation. After all, I did indeed opine about "usability" -- just not usability in
the ordinary, mundane sense of the word, nor potential usability.

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