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CONLANG  June 2016, Week 2

CONLANG June 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Conmusic (was: Lighting Some Flames: Towards conlang artistry)

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:37:19 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 16:23:00 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Hallo conlangers!
>
>On 09.06.2016 03:28, Padraic Brown wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 31 May 2016 15:48:51 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have heard the term "conmusic" for the music of fictional cultures. So
>>> someone making conmusic would be a "conmusician". As "conlang" does not
>>> necessarily imply fictionality, we can expand the term "conmusic" to
>>> include edifices like that of Harry Partch, who would thus be a
>>> conmusician without anchoring his music in a fictional world.
>> I've heard the term as well, but I find it much harder to apply than even "conlanger". The reason being, music is already a universally accepted art,
>> as is the composing of it. No further qualifiers are necessary. Take the music that was written for the Elves (or indeed the Hobbits!) in the LotR
>> movies. I would nòt consider those tunes necessarily examples of "conmusic", and the composer was not really acting the part of "conmusician".
>>
>> Same goes for whoever wrote the snippet of Klingon opera music or the whistle tune Piccard played.
>
>Most of the diegetic music in fantasy or science fiction films (such as
>the music played by the band in the Mos-Eisley spaceport bar in _Star
>Wars: A New Hope_, which is essentially just 1920s jazz played on
>synthesizers) is just music that follows real-world music traditions,
>but that is IMHO essentially the same problem as with poorly-designed
>fictional languages that are just altered versions of natlangs.

Agreed -- there is well and poorly devised invented music. But I think the point remains:
there is far less a dividing line between music & musical systems invented as part of a
larger work of art (an otherworld) and music & musical systems that are not invented as 
part of an otherworld.

It's kind of obvious when the Klingon character starts singing in Klingon that the language
is an invented one. It's a lot less obvious that the music itself is invented. It could stand
on its own where an invented language could not.

>You just can't argue from this that conmusic does not exist; 

I'm most certainly not doing that! What I am saying is that the border between
"natural music" and "invented music" is far more porous, to the point of there
being no actual border. A piece of invented music could very easily cross that
border and be experienced in natural music land without the experiencer being
any the wiser. This doesn't work so well for invented languages.


>what about,
>for instance, the music Herman Miller has created for his small furry
>beings, with made-up tuning systems, instruments (probably just emulated
>on a synthesizer) and terminology in his conlangs? He is certainly more
>than just a composer; he has made things by himself which most composers
>take for granted.

Certainly "more than just a composer", and I think I've said as much already.
(Though I could be misremembering now!)

But on the other hand, there are plenty of "just a composer"s out there who
are doing the same exact thing! Only they are not doing it within the context
of an invented culture!

This is what I'm getting at. When you invent a language and then invent a kind of
poetry or a genre of prose and then proceed to write in that poetic form, you are
doing something *substantively* and *qualitatively* different than a poet or writer in
German or English is doing. You are inventing the substrate far more than those
of us who dabble in invented music do.

Those of us who invent musics as part of our greater work aren't really doing 
anything *substantively* different than some other composers do. *Qualitatively*
is another matter! Here is where the "conmusician's" work shines: because the
invented music is part of an invented world, it becomes an integrated part of the
greater work. It is part of the culture, part of the life of the people of the otherworld.
Invented music breathes life into a world and gives a new voice to its people. It
adds dimensions of reality to a work above and beyond merely saying "such and such
a people have their own music" and leaving it at that.

It's like years ago when we did the conlang recipes. I'm not necessarily sure I'd go
so far as to say that someone who engages in that activity is a "conchef", but like
with the invented music and the invented jewelry and invented maps and so forth,
all of those little things go towards making the otherworld come to life just that much
more.

>> I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I really don't see creating a musical style or genre for an otherworld as significantly different than
>> exploring some new direction in ordinary music. When I write music that occurs in The World, while I consider all that matter as part of the culture
>> & history of the place, I don't really see this composing as "different".
>>
>> I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on this!
>
>I feel that you are trivializing the invention of a new music system
>(scales, instruments, forms, etc.) the same way as you trivialize the
>invention of a new language in the other thread. By the same logic you
>argue that conmusicians are just musicians you could (and actually seem
>to) argue that conlangers are just writers. Or did I get you wrong?

Yes, I think I'm not explaining my position well. I certainly don't mean to
trivialise something that all of us work hard at and that I myself engage
in and work hard at as well!

As someone who has also invented a system of music, with instrument design 
considered, with scales and harmonic wossnames considered and even with 
some of the language of music worked out (though not *realized* to the degree 
Herman has done), I certainly get where you're coming from, and as with our 
discussion of fashioning a language, I really don't think my intention here is to 
"trivialise" anything.

As far as the conlangs go, I guess I see them now more as steps along a different 
path or (artistically created!) pieces of a bigger art. For me, the conlang isn't the 
end result but part of the process along the way. This isn't meant to demean the
work of others for whom the conlang is the goal, just that I don't see it that way
anymore.

As for music, I just think there is really no clear dividing line between "ultra-new
/ avant-gard / "out there" music that is not connected with an otherworld and
music that is connected with an otherworld. New tunings, new instruments, new
scales, new harmonic structures --- these things are nothing new in music! We
wouldn't be where we are now in music without previous generations tinkering
and devising something new!

As I see it, there's just far more of a smooth continuum within music than there 
is in the language arts. As of now, there is a dividing line between language artists
(writers) who work in natural languages and those (glossopoets) who work with
invented languages. I look at it like this: unless Herman comes out and explains
what he's doing, no one would really notice that his music is part of a greater work
of art (his otherworld). They might just think that's kind of funky music! I wonder
what it is?

So, I'm certainly not saying that invented music does not exist -- it does! I just
don't see as clear a dividing line there as with invented languages.

Hope that explains a little better!

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