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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  July 2016, Week 3

CONLANG July 2016, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Hearing Hands: A Collaborative Sign Language

From:

Sai <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 20 Jul 2016 17:00:29 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (89 lines)

To be quite clear, I do not at all claim that there is any such exclusivity.

I'm not deaf (nor Deaf), yet am a reasonably fluent user of ASL.

In fact, I think hearing people *should* learn a sign language, even
if they have no contact with deaf people. It's very useful, and it
gives you a different perspective on language. I've learned several
spoken languages; ASL is still my favorite natlang, and communicating
with deaf people was no part at all of my choice to take ASL. (In
fact, I find it sad that that's the nearly exclusive reason people
take ASL classes. It's a lovely language in its own right.)

I also have nothing against an artistic or engineered consignlang. In
fact, I believe I was the one arguing to you very recently that there
aren't *enough* of them. ;-)

I think there are a couple *potential* problems with just blundering
about, though:
a) if attempting to make a sign language with no clue how natural sign
languages work or how the medium can work in principle, resulting in
more abominations like SEE (by applying spoken-L1 morphosyntactic
assumptions); or
b) if attempting to make a sign language for real world use, excluding
deaf people (i.e. the exact opposite of what you described), or
replicating real-world historical oppressions thereof (see, again,
SEE).

These are both entirely avoidable — but doing so requires an awareness
of (very recent) history, and of the medium.

- Sai

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:02 AM, BPJ <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> To address this once more when I'm not over-exhausted:
>
> I think there is something very suspect in the notion that
> because some group of people use some medium as their primary
> mode of communication they should have dibs on that medium of
> communication, precluding others to use the same medium. Clearly
> anyone should be free to communicate through or express
> themselves artistically in any medium they want to and are able
> to communicate through/express themselves through.
>
> By this line of thought just because there are people with
> articulatory and motor disability -- the former making it hard
> for them to speak and the latter making it hard for them to sign
> -- who use a board or screen with logographic signs as their
> primary mode of communication, then all non-motor-disabled people
> using hanzi/kanji/hanja should stop using them. Nobody would take
> such a claim/demand seriously, and those people using
> Blissymbolics whom I know or used to know would not dream of
> making such a claim. To demand exclusive rights to signed
> communication for deaf people is actually just as preposterous.
> It is only less obviously so because the majority of hearing-to-
> hearing signed interactions happen between hunters in indigenous
> populations on the southern half of the globe.
>
> /bpj
>
>
> Den 2016-07-17 kl. 23:40, skrev BPJ:
>>
>> Den 2016-07-17 kl. 18:45, skrev Sai:
>>>
>>> Having a sign language intentionally made without consideration
>>> of a Deaf
>>> audience strikes me as … fairly culturally insensitive at best,
>>> and likely
>>> to be a SEE-oid.
>>
>>
>> I'm making a Romance artlang without asking Romance natlang
>> speakers for permisson/input, and without expecting them to (want
>> to) start using it. Would you consider that insensitive of me?
>>
>> Also note that there *are* sign langs developed and used
>> primarily by hearing persons, mostly by hunters in order to
>> not alert the game. While these can probably be considered DSLs
>> rather than full languages they are signed communication, and I
>> bet at least some of them are better developed than many a
>> conlang made by people on this list.
>>
>> /bpj
>>
>
>
> --
> Mind the reply-to!

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