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CONLANG  September 2016, Week 4

CONLANG September 2016, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Inuktitut syllabics

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 28 Sep 2016 09:14:34 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (255 lines)

On 27 September 2016 at 02:09, James Constable <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> This is similar to the English tengwar mode, where the tehtar (vowel
> diacritics) indicate the preceding vowel.
>
> The English mode doesn't feature default vowels, but there are others that
> do, e.g. the Quenya mode defaults to [a] (but also puts the vowel after the
> carrying consonant).
>

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I had dimly remembered it when writing
my original message but had been in too much haste (and anyway also too
lazy) to go and look up the details.


> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 at 10:37 Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > And what would the default vowel be? Schwa? Dialectically variant?
>

There woudn't necessarily be a default, but if there were, it would
probably be No Vowel. E.g. _tack_ would be <t.ak>, starting with the
default (if there is one), while _attack_ would be <°t.ak>; _sent_ would be
<s.en.t>, and _senate_ would be <s.en.°t>.


> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 20:34 Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Why would "conlang" end in "an.g" instead of there being a separate
> > > syllable for "ang"? Since that's /ŋ/, not /ng/...
>

This got discussed extensively on list in the last year or two, so I'm
reluctant to bore the list by recapitulating it all again (tho it wouldn't
bore me to bore the list again), but the short answer is that English has
no /ŋ/ -- the case for analysing it as /ng/ is much more compelling than
the case for positing a phoneme /ŋ/. (That oversimplifies: a truer picture
would be to say that (IMO) the subsegmental phonological building blocks
can form a guttural nasal that is not before /g/, e.g. in _Ngaio_ (which
starts with [ŋaj]), but that in 'meremes' the guttural nasal occurs only in
/ng/, where the nasal assimilates gutturality from the /g/ -- meremes being
onset- and rhyme-like chunks out of which regular unexotic words are
formed. The phonology of meremes is core phonology, whereas the phonology
of the ameremic belongs to a rather lawless hinterland. (This is all the
story according to me, not to be found in textbooks or elsewhere.))

--And.



> > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 18:51 And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Speaking of abugidas, I think that if I were to invent from scratch
> for
> > >> contemporary English a writing system that best reflected its
> phonology,
> > >> it
> > >> would be an abugida -- but its characters would represent not C(V) but
> > >> (V)C
> > >> (or in some cases (V)C(C)). Not that (V)C units are especially
> > fundamental
> > >> to English, but they're the units that are, I think, most
> > combinatorially
> > >> unconstrained, so the greatest number of orthographic strings
> represent
> > >> something that's phonologically licit, yielding the most economical
> > >> system.
> > >> Not all dialects would have the same inventory of characters.
> > >>
> > >> _Conlang_, for instance, would be <k.on.l.an.g>, five letters. _Mark
> > Reed_
> > >> would be <m.a°r.k r.iy.d>, six letters. _And Rosta_ would be <ånd
> > >> r.ozd.°r>, four letters, (or <an.d r.ozd.°h> for some lects, five
> > >> letters),
> > >> or <ånd r.oš.d.°r>, five letters, in alternative pronunciation. _Paul
> > >> Roser_ would be <p.o°r.l r.ůw.z.°r>, in my lect, seven letters,
> <p.oh.l
> > >> r.ůw.z.°r> in his (I think). Alex Fink would be <al.°gz f.in.k>, five
> > >> letters.
> > >>
> > >> I've mostly worked out the values for the characters, but never
> bothered
> > >> making up shapes for the characters. If anybody fancies making up the
> > >> shapes, be my guest!
> > >>
> > >> --And.
> > >>
> > >> On 26 September 2016 at 22:47, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > In a true syllabary there is not necessarily any visible connection
> > >> between
> > >> > symbols for syllables with a common phoneme. Good luck identifying
> the
> > >> part
> > >> > of a kana glyph representing the vowel, for instance. There's not
> > really
> > >> > anything in き (Hiragana /ki/) that you can point to and say "that's
> > the
> > >> > /i/".
> > >> >
> > >> > An abugida is closer to an alphabet or pointed abjad. The mainline
> > >> glyphs
> > >> > represent consonants, and are recognizable even when there are vowel
> > >> > changes. By default, a consonant symbol by itself represents a
> > syllable
> > >> > consisting of that consonant followed by some default vowel (/a/ in
> > the
> > >> > case of Devanagari and related scripts), but you can add markings
> that
> > >> > change the vowel or, in the case of the virama, remove it entirely.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 17:34 William Wright
> > >> <[log in to unmask]
> > >> > com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between an adugida
> > and
> > >> > > a syllabary?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 2:31 PM, William Wright
> > >> > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >> > > > Sorry about that; I meant to send it to the list. Thanks for the
> > >> > answer,
> > >> > > though.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 1:19 PM, jameshyett jameshyett
> > >> > > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >> > > >> Hey there, did you mean to send this to the mailing list or to
> me
> > >> > > >> specifically?
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> The two are very similar, but I believe in an abugida (like
> > >> > Devanagari),
> > >> > > >> while each symbol does by default represent (at least) a CV
> > >> sequence,
> > >> > > >> additional vowel markings can be added to change the vowel from
> > >> > default
> > >> > > (eg
> > >> > > >> 'a' in Devanagari). In a 'true' syllabary, each symbol
> represents
> > >> one
> > >> > > >> syllable (in Inuktitut syllabics, a CV sequence), with
> additional
> > >> > > markings
> > >> > > >> possibly for things other than vowels (in Inuktitut, there are
> > >> > explicit
> > >> > > >> markings for coda consonants and vowel length).
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> Cheers,
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> -James
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> ---------- Original Message ----------
> > >> > > >> From: William Wright <[log in to unmask]>
> > >> > > >> Date: September 26, 2016 at 3:01 PM
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between an
> > adugida
> > >> and
> > >> > > >> a syllabary?
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 11:36 AM, jameshyett jameshyett
> > >> > > >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >> > > >>> Very neat, I concur, but also interesting to note the rate of
> > >> > literacy
> > >> > > in
> > >> > > >>> syllabics, as discussed in this article http://goo.gl/lrNTK3,
> > >> > > particularly
> > >> > > >>> in
> > >> > > >>> the third-last paragraph. In my opinion, and there is probably
> > >> > science
> > >> > > >>> that
> > >> > > >>> backs this up, the system is a nightmare for dyslexia, quite
> > apart
> > >> > from
> > >> > > >>> making
> > >> > > >>> rotated text (eg reading upside down) so much more of a
> > challenge.
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> Not terribly articulate cause I'm in lecture and have to pee
> but
> > >> this
> > >> > > is
> > >> > > >>> what i
> > >> > > >>> thought of when i saw the subject line.
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> -James
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>>> ---------- Original Message ----------
> > >> > > >>>> From: "B. R. George" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >> > > >>>> Date: September 26, 2016 at 2:08 PM
> > >> > > >>>>
> > >> > > >>>>
> > >> > > >>>> Part of a family of scripts first developed for (I think)
> > Ojibwe,
> > >> > no?
> > >> > > >>>> (Sorry if that's already in the video in detail - I'm not in
> a
> > >> good
> > >> > > place
> > >> > > >>>> to watch it.)
> > >> > > >>>>
> > >> > > >>>> In any case, I concur that it's pretty cool.
> > >> > > >>>>
> > >> > > >>>> B
> > >> > > >>>>
> > >> > > >>>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Logan Kearsley <
> > >> > > [log in to unmask]>
> > >> > > >>>> wrote:
> > >> > > >>>>
> > >> > > >>>> > This is a pretty cool script that I had not heard of
> before:
> > >> > > >>>> >
> > >> > > >>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW4hI_METac
> > >> > > >>>> >
> > >> > > >>>> > Also one of the few examples of a conscript becoming the
> > >> standard
> > >> > > >>>> > orthography of a natlang.
> > >> > > >>>> >
> > >> > > >>>> > -l.
> > >> > > >>>> >
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> --
> > >> > > >> Sincerely,
> > >> > > >> William S. Wright
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > --
> > >> > > > Sincerely,
> > >> > > >          William S. Wright
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --
> > >> > > Sincerely,
> > >> > >          William S. Wright
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> >
>

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April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
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July 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
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August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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