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CONLANG  November 2016, Week 1

CONLANG November 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Back to Phonology

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 Nov 2016 18:14:33 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

That does indeed sound like a [d_j] (palatalized d) of some kind.
Palatoalveolar and alveopalatal stops are also possible although so rare
that the IPA (unlike some specialist transcription systems) doesn't have
any distinct symbols for them. A fricative becoming implosive is however
just the situation where I'd expect them to arise.

/bpj

I hope this makes sense. I'm writing with my daughter's 2yo leaning on my
chest while watching cartoons on my phone! :-)

Den 7 nov 2016 16:37 skrev "The Scribbler" <
[log in to unmask]>:

> On Question 1. Could it be a palatalized alveolar implosive stop? I'm
> basically using the same point of articulation as the implosive d, but it
> seems distinctly palatalized and sounds like a nice cross between j and y
> (which is horrible analysis, pardon my American English ears). In short, if
> I was making it off the palate, I probably would just analyze it as J\, but
> I'm not actually making it off the hard palate.
> Are palatalized implosives a thing? Okay, besides b. And if yes, could
> that feasibly stand in for an implosive j affricate, substituting a
> palatalized alveolar implosive? Which would also contrast with the
> nonpalatalized.
>
>
>
>       From: Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>
>  To: [log in to unmask]
>  Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 11:14 AM
>  Subject: Re: Back to Phonology
>
> On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 15:35:27 +0000, The Scribbler <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >Thank you, everyone, for all the help. I've got a couple more questions
> based on my homework. :)
> >
> >Question 1. In doing further study on affricates, fricatives, etc., I ran
> into the idea that the implosive palato-alveolar affricate is not a thing,
> but I don't have any difficulty saying ja implosivized the same way I say
> ba. Am I imagining things? Is this safe to include in my conlang with an
> implosive series?
>
> Up to you.  But what nature seems to say is this: they may well be
> possible, there are scattered reports of them, but they're unquestionably
> dispreferred.  Usually one finds that a language with palato-alveolar
> affricates and an implosive series will have a palatal implosive stop
> instead, or occasionally some other sort of substitute like /j?)/, or of
> course just a gap.
>
> I assume the acoustic motivation for this is that it's very typical for
> implosives to have _no_ flow of air either in or out when the stop closure
> is released, vs. pulmonic stops which have a burst of air escaping.  If
> there's no flow of air then it doesn't matter if you immediately put your
> tongue into position for a fricative: the noise of fricatives comes from
> the turbulence of air flowing through a narrowed passage in the mouth, so
> no flow, no noise.  Can you hear a difference between your implosive "ja"
> and [J\_<a]?
>
> >Question 2. When it comes to minimal contrast pairs, I have allophones in
> complementary distribution for various stressed positions, but stress
> itself is phonemic, changing the meaning of the word. In a situation where
> a'shi means something different than ashi', would the allophone for
> stressed a be phonemically contrastive with the unstressed a or would they
> both fall under a in the phonemic inventory and be treated as allophones in
> the phonetic inventory?
> >
> >I was doing the latter and treating stressed allophones as just that, but
> considering there is a semantic difference when stress is applied to a
> syllable, does that make it a minimal contrast pair and mean I should
> consider them separate phonemes? That always confuses me a bit.
>
> AFAICT you can still get away with analysing stress as contrastive, and
> the difference between e.g. stressed and unstressed /a/ as allophonic.  The
> minimal pair in your last paragraph would be a minimal pair *for the
> position of stress*, not for a contrast between segments.  Suprasegmental
> phonemic contrasts are a thing: is the source of your confusion that you
> are (implicitly) assuming that all phonemic contrasts have to be in
> segments?
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segment_(linguistics)#Suprasegmentals
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>

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