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CONLANG  November 2016, Week 1

CONLANG November 2016, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Back to Phonology

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 Nov 2016 22:35:06 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (135 lines)

There isn't any trouble at all. From a systemic viewpoint affricates *are*
"stops" in most languages which have them, so they are, still from a
systemic POV, not substituting one category for another when they have an
implosive stop paired with a pulmonic affricate. That's why phonology and
phonetics are different disciplines! If you like you can think of
affricates as a kind of stops with a really slow plosion phase. :-) It's
not totally facetious, since there are languages which contrast affricates
and stop+fricative sequences, e.g. Polish.

/bpj

Den 7 nov 2016 20:31 skrev "The Scribbler" <
[log in to unmask]>:

> Thank you! It does sound like it could be analyzed as either for the
> purposes of explanation and I should probably stick with the one easier to
> notate, but glad to know I'm on the right track! It did make sense.
> This is the trouble that comes of speakers treating affricates and
> fricatives like stops. Though I'm looking into how languages treat their
> fricatives and stops differently and looks like there's other languages
> that have less voicing distinction on their fricatives than their stops, so
> I'm poking through some of those languages to figure out what gives.
> Thank you again for all the help! You're the best.
>
>
>
>       From: Melroch <[log in to unmask]>
>  To: [log in to unmask]
>  Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 10:14 AM
>  Subject: Re: Back to Phonology
>
> That does indeed sound like a [d_j] (palatalized d) of some kind.
> Palatoalveolar and alveopalatal stops are also possible although so rare
> that the IPA (unlike some specialist transcription systems) doesn't have
> any distinct symbols for them. A fricative becoming implosive is however
> just the situation where I'd expect them to arise.
>
> /bpj
>
> I hope this makes sense. I'm writing with my daughter's 2yo leaning on my
> chest while watching cartoons on my phone! :-)
>
> Den 7 nov 2016 16:37 skrev "The Scribbler" <
> [log in to unmask]>:
>
> > On Question 1. Could it be a palatalized alveolar implosive stop? I'm
> > basically using the same point of articulation as the implosive d, but it
> > seems distinctly palatalized and sounds like a nice cross between j and y
> > (which is horrible analysis, pardon my American English ears). In short,
> if
> > I was making it off the palate, I probably would just analyze it as J\,
> but
> > I'm not actually making it off the hard palate.
> > Are palatalized implosives a thing? Okay, besides b. And if yes, could
> > that feasibly stand in for an implosive j affricate, substituting a
> > palatalized alveolar implosive? Which would also contrast with the
> > nonpalatalized.
> >
> >
> >
> >      From: Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>
> >  To: [log in to unmask]
> >  Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 11:14 AM
> >  Subject: Re: Back to Phonology
> >
> > On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 15:35:27 +0000, The Scribbler <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > >Thank you, everyone, for all the help. I've got a couple more questions
> > based on my homework. :)
> > >
> > >Question 1. In doing further study on affricates, fricatives, etc., I
> ran
> > into the idea that the implosive palato-alveolar affricate is not a
> thing,
> > but I don't have any difficulty saying ja implosivized the same way I say
> > ba. Am I imagining things? Is this safe to include in my conlang with an
> > implosive series?
> >
> > Up to you.  But what nature seems to say is this: they may well be
> > possible, there are scattered reports of them, but they're unquestionably
> > dispreferred.  Usually one finds that a language with palato-alveolar
> > affricates and an implosive series will have a palatal implosive stop
> > instead, or occasionally some other sort of substitute like /j?)/, or of
> > course just a gap.
> >
> > I assume the acoustic motivation for this is that it's very typical for
> > implosives to have _no_ flow of air either in or out when the stop
> closure
> > is released, vs. pulmonic stops which have a burst of air escaping.  If
> > there's no flow of air then it doesn't matter if you immediately put your
> > tongue into position for a fricative: the noise of fricatives comes from
> > the turbulence of air flowing through a narrowed passage in the mouth, so
> > no flow, no noise.  Can you hear a difference between your implosive "ja"
> > and [J\_<a]?
> >
> > >Question 2. When it comes to minimal contrast pairs, I have allophones
> in
> > complementary distribution for various stressed positions, but stress
> > itself is phonemic, changing the meaning of the word. In a situation
> where
> > a'shi means something different than ashi', would the allophone for
> > stressed a be phonemically contrastive with the unstressed a or would
> they
> > both fall under a in the phonemic inventory and be treated as allophones
> in
> > the phonetic inventory?
> > >
> > >I was doing the latter and treating stressed allophones as just that,
> but
> > considering there is a semantic difference when stress is applied to a
> > syllable, does that make it a minimal contrast pair and mean I should
> > consider them separate phonemes? That always confuses me a bit.
> >
> > AFAICT you can still get away with analysing stress as contrastive, and
> > the difference between e.g. stressed and unstressed /a/ as allophonic.
> The
> > minimal pair in your last paragraph would be a minimal pair *for the
> > position of stress*, not for a contrast between segments.  Suprasegmental
> > phonemic contrasts are a thing: is the source of your confusion that you
> > are (implicitly) assuming that all phonemic contrasts have to be in
> > segments?
> >  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segment_(linguistics)#Suprasegmentals
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

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