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CONLANG  November 2016, Week 2

CONLANG November 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Back to Phonology

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Nov 2016 07:57:56 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (242 lines)

The difference is that Polish makes the distinction in onsets and that's
pretty rare.

Den 8 nov 2016 22:55 skrev "Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>:

> > there are languages which contrast affricates
> and stop+fricative sequences, e.g. Polish.
>
> ... not to mention at least some lects of English. The vulgar minimal pair
> we were taught in my intro to linguistics class is "catch it" vs "cat
> shit".
> On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 14:05 Melroch <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assimilation_(phonology)
> >
> > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissimilation
> >
> > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coarticulation
> >
> > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinctive_feature
> >
> > Den 7 nov 2016 23:10 skrev "The Scribbler" <
> > [log in to unmask]>:
> >
> > > Oh, it's definitely no trouble in use, just in nailing down what
> happens
> > > when they're treated differently and it feels to the speaker like
> they're
> > > treated the same. It's just trouble in analysis. For me anyway.
> > > One of my favorite things to study is how sounds do or don't meld when
> > > they're slammed against each other. I like those stop + fricative
> > > sequences. :D
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >       From: Melroch <[log in to unmask]>
> > >  To: [log in to unmask]
> > >  Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 2:35 PM
> > >  Subject: Re: Back to Phonology
> > >
> > > There isn't any trouble at all. From a systemic viewpoint affricates
> > *are*
> > > "stops" in most languages which have them, so they are, still from a
> > > systemic POV, not substituting one category for another when they have
> an
> > > implosive stop paired with a pulmonic affricate. That's why phonology
> and
> > > phonetics are different disciplines! If you like you can think of
> > > affricates as a kind of stops with a really slow plosion phase. :-)
> It's
> > > not totally facetious, since there are languages which contrast
> > affricates
> > > and stop+fricative sequences, e.g. Polish.
> > >
> > > /bpj
> > >
> > > Den 7 nov 2016 20:31 skrev "The Scribbler" <
> > > [log in to unmask]>:
> > >
> > > > Thank you! It does sound like it could be analyzed as either for the
> > > > purposes of explanation and I should probably stick with the one
> easier
> > > to
> > > > notate, but glad to know I'm on the right track! It did make sense.
> > > > This is the trouble that comes of speakers treating affricates and
> > > > fricatives like stops. Though I'm looking into how languages treat
> > their
> > > > fricatives and stops differently and looks like there's other
> languages
> > > > that have less voicing distinction on their fricatives than their
> > stops,
> > > so
> > > > I'm poking through some of those languages to figure out what gives.
> > > > Thank you again for all the help! You're the best.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >      From: Melroch <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >  To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >  Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 10:14 AM
> > > >  Subject: Re: Back to Phonology
> > > >
> > > > That does indeed sound like a [d_j] (palatalized d) of some kind.
> > > > Palatoalveolar and alveopalatal stops are also possible although so
> > rare
> > > > that the IPA (unlike some specialist transcription systems) doesn't
> > have
> > > > any distinct symbols for them. A fricative becoming implosive is
> > however
> > > > just the situation where I'd expect them to arise.
> > > >
> > > > /bpj
> > > >
> > > > I hope this makes sense. I'm writing with my daughter's 2yo leaning
> on
> > my
> > > > chest while watching cartoons on my phone! :-)
> > > >
> > > > Den 7 nov 2016 16:37 skrev "The Scribbler" <
> > > > [log in to unmask]>:
> > > >
> > > > > On Question 1. Could it be a palatalized alveolar implosive stop?
> I'm
> > > > > basically using the same point of articulation as the implosive d,
> > but
> > > it
> > > > > seems distinctly palatalized and sounds like a nice cross between j
> > > and y
> > > > > (which is horrible analysis, pardon my American English ears). In
> > > short,
> > > > if
> > > > > I was making it off the palate, I probably would just analyze it as
> > J\,
> > > > but
> > > > > I'm not actually making it off the hard palate.
> > > > > Are palatalized implosives a thing? Okay, besides b. And if yes,
> > could
> > > > > that feasibly stand in for an implosive j affricate, substituting a
> > > > > palatalized alveolar implosive? Which would also contrast with the
> > > > > nonpalatalized.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >      From: Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >  To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > >  Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 11:14 AM
> > > > >  Subject: Re: Back to Phonology
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 15:35:27 +0000, The Scribbler <
> > > > > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Thank you, everyone, for all the help. I've got a couple more
> > > questions
> > > > > based on my homework. :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Question 1. In doing further study on affricates, fricatives,
> etc.,
> > I
> > > > ran
> > > > > into the idea that the implosive palato-alveolar affricate is not a
> > > > thing,
> > > > > but I don't have any difficulty saying ja implosivized the same
> way I
> > > say
> > > > > ba. Am I imagining things? Is this safe to include in my conlang
> with
> > > an
> > > > > implosive series?
> > > > >
> > > > > Up to you.  But what nature seems to say is this: they may well be
> > > > > possible, there are scattered reports of them, but they're
> > > unquestionably
> > > > > dispreferred.  Usually one finds that a language with
> palato-alveolar
> > > > > affricates and an implosive series will have a palatal implosive
> stop
> > > > > instead, or occasionally some other sort of substitute like /j?)/,
> or
> > > of
> > > > > course just a gap.
> > > > >
> > > > > I assume the acoustic motivation for this is that it's very typical
> > for
> > > > > implosives to have _no_ flow of air either in or out when the stop
> > > > closure
> > > > > is released, vs. pulmonic stops which have a burst of air escaping.
> > If
> > > > > there's no flow of air then it doesn't matter if you immediately
> put
> > > your
> > > > > tongue into position for a fricative: the noise of fricatives comes
> > > from
> > > > > the turbulence of air flowing through a narrowed passage in the
> > mouth,
> > > so
> > > > > no flow, no noise.  Can you hear a difference between your
> implosive
> > > "ja"
> > > > > and [J\_<a]?
> > > > >
> > > > > >Question 2. When it comes to minimal contrast pairs, I have
> > allophones
> > > > in
> > > > > complementary distribution for various stressed positions, but
> stress
> > > > > itself is phonemic, changing the meaning of the word. In a
> situation
> > > > where
> > > > > a'shi means something different than ashi', would the allophone for
> > > > > stressed a be phonemically contrastive with the unstressed a or
> would
> > > > they
> > > > > both fall under a in the phonemic inventory and be treated as
> > > allophones
> > > > in
> > > > > the phonetic inventory?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I was doing the latter and treating stressed allophones as just
> > that,
> > > > but
> > > > > considering there is a semantic difference when stress is applied
> to
> > a
> > > > > syllable, does that make it a minimal contrast pair and mean I
> should
> > > > > consider them separate phonemes? That always confuses me a bit.
> > > > >
> > > > > AFAICT you can still get away with analysing stress as contrastive,
> > and
> > > > > the difference between e.g. stressed and unstressed /a/ as
> > allophonic.
> > > > The
> > > > > minimal pair in your last paragraph would be a minimal pair *for
> the
> > > > > position of stress*, not for a contrast between segments.
> > > Suprasegmental
> > > > > phonemic contrasts are a thing: is the source of your confusion
> that
> > > you
> > > > > are (implicitly) assuming that all phonemic contrasts have to be in
> > > > > segments?
> > > > >  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segment_(linguistics)#
> Suprasegmentals
> > > > >
> > > > > Alex
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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