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CONLANG  November 2016, Week 2

CONLANG November 2016, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Clitic vs Affix

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:16:53 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (94 lines)

Like English object pronouns form a 'clitic group' with the verb (or
preposition). The pronouns have their weak forms, and _them_ th-drops to
[log in to unmask] _Give_ with certain clitic objects can have a variant v-less stem
_gi-_ in _gimme_ 'give me', _giyit_ or _girrit_ 'give it', _giz_ 'give us'
(in some dialects).

--And.


On 8 November 2016 at 09:55, Melroch <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Like Logan I don't know enough Spanish to be sure but under the not too
> bold assumption that these Spanish pronouns behave like their Italian
> cognates the point is that they are always completely unstressed, and
> become part of the stress group of the word they attach to (usually
> (always?) a verb).
>
> Den 8 nov 2016 03:34 skrev "William Wright" <[log in to unmask]
> com
> >:
>
> > The line between them is not always obvious, but the essential
> > distinction is one of what level of structure they appear in / attach
> > to. If a particular morpheme is always part of a particular kind of
> > word, moves around with that word, and otherwise behaves in such a way
> > that we can conclude that it is a part of the internal morphological
> > structure of that word, then it's an affix. If a particular morpheme
> > appears phonologically to attach to another word, but patterns with a
> > particular bit of *syntax*, rather than with a particular *word*, and
> > behaves syntactically as if it were a separate word despite it's
> > phonological behavior, then it's a clitic.
> >
> > Consider, for example, the English possessive <'s>. It goes on the
> > ends of nouns to make the possessive, right? Well, not really- it goes
> > on the ends of *noun phrases*. It often looks like it attaches to
> > nouns, but that's just because bare nouns can constitute noun phrases,
> > and complex noun phrases often end with nouns anyway, but in fact
> > other stuff can be inserted between the head noun and the <'s>, as in
> > "the man I had lunch with's food", where we see the possessive marker
> > attaching to a preposition. Phonologically, it happens to be stuck to
> > a preposition, because that's what happens to be next to it at the
> > phonological level, but syntactically it is associated with the entire
> > noun phrase, and so we know that it is in fact a clitic rather than a
> > suffix.
> >
> > What about Spanish pronouns like me, te, lo, le, etc.? I've heard
> > they're clitics, but I can't think of a situation where they are
> > actually attached to/influenced by another word aside from
> > orthographically. Does that count? Otherwise, it seems that they would
> > just be words, since they can move around like you'd expect a word to.
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 5:25 PM, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > On 7 November 2016 at 18:15, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >> I am confused about how to distinguish clitics from affixes. This does
> > not
> > >> seem to me to be a clearcut distinction. Can anyone give me a
> definitive
> > >> guideline?
> > >
> > > The line between them is not always obvious, but the essential
> > > distinction is one of what level of structure they appear in / attach
> > > to. If a particular morpheme is always part of a particular kind of
> > > word, moves around with that word, and otherwise behaves in such a way
> > > that we can conclude that it is a part of the internal morphological
> > > structure of that word, then it's an affix. If a particular morpheme
> > > appears phonologically to attach to another word, but patterns with a
> > > particular bit of *syntax*, rather than with a particular *word*, and
> > > behaves syntactically as if it were a separate word despite it's
> > > phonological behavior, then it's a clitic.
> > >
> > > Consider, for example, the English possessive <'s>. It goes on the
> > > ends of nouns to make the possessive, right? Well, not really- it goes
> > > on the ends of *noun phrases*. It often looks like it attaches to
> > > nouns, but that's just because bare nouns can constitute noun phrases,
> > > and complex noun phrases often end with nouns anyway, but in fact
> > > other stuff can be inserted between the head noun and the <'s>, as in
> > > "the man I had lunch with's food", where we see the possessive marker
> > > attaching to a preposition. Phonologically, it happens to be stuck to
> > > a preposition, because that's what happens to be next to it at the
> > > phonological level, but syntactically it is associated with the entire
> > > noun phrase, and so we know that it is in fact a clitic rather than a
> > > suffix.
> > >
> > > -l.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >          William S. Wright
> >
>

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