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CONLANG  November 2016, Week 3

CONLANG November 2016, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Clusivity with second person.

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:02:10 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (43 lines)

On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:39:48 +1100, Brian Weekes <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I am just wondering if anyone has experimented at all with using
>exclusive/inclusive forms within the second person.
>
>From what I read there seems to be some disagreement in the academic
>community over the possibility of second degree clusivity being functional.

So it seems!
  http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c6/02/55/59/Simon-2005-Only-You-Clusivity.pdf

Simon's ultimate conclusion in that article is that though all the languages generally used as examples of second-person clusivity are actually examples not of that but instead of other phenomena, Bavarian *is* in fact a real example.  It may be that he's right about Bavarian, but he really pulls a remarkable volte-face to make that claim which leaves me suspicious of the whole endeavour.  In one breath he castigates Borgman whose description of Sanuma "reveals that he remains firmly in the terminological web of grammaticographical tradition:"
| > First person plural inclusive and second person plural have the same
| > pronoun and only context determines which referent is intended.
| (Borgmann 1990: 149)
Clearly, he says, there's in fact only one pronoun here with one semantic value, and that is 'group including the addressee' (the speaker being irrelevant).  But in the next breath he has the cheek to say of Bavarian
| Second, there is a stunning homonymy between the second person singular
| honorative and the second person plural inclusive; and this holds true for
| all the other case forms of the two pronouns and the correlated verb forms
| not listed here, too.
Complete homonymy in all forms!!  What happened to not multiplying grammatical entities beyond necessity?  Anyway, it doesn't help my suspicions that Simon probably knows Bavarian through lived experience and the other languages he cites through reading grammars.  My interpretation of this is that probably so-called second person clusivity is something which many languages are indeed sensitive to in one way or another, but the sensitivity is usually subtle and grammar descriptions can very easily miss it slash not make a convincing case for it.

But Simon does make one very good point, or rather, quote one very good point made by Plank.  Namely, the mapping between _person_, the grammatical category, and _speech act role deixis_, i.e. the real-world facts about referents and their participation in the conversation, is not god-given.  Traditional IE-motivated grammatical description establishes the categories
  first person: includes the speaker
  second person: includes a listener but not the speaker
  third person: includes neither speaker nor any listener.
For Sanuma, and Ojibwe agreement prefixes and various other languages beside, one wants a different mapping
  (person A): includes a listener
  (person B): includes the speaker but not any listener
  third person: includes neither speaker nor any listener.
To discourage preconceptions, the first two of these persons would perhaps be best served by entirely different names.  I don't know what good names would be, though.  (Simon suggests the strategy of calling person A "first person" -- 'cause it's the one whose conditions you check first, right -- and person B "second person" similarly, but to me that's completely out of the question in its perversity, just as bad an idea as a romanisation with /p/ spelled ‹t› and /t/ spelled ‹p›.)

If you've really absorbed the above, perhaps the question "why mightn't there be clusivity in the second person" loses some of its compulsion, since the question "why mightn't there not be a second person" is logically prior...

At any rate, some of the related phenomena which definitely do seem to occur in natlangs, and contextually can achieve similar effects, are
* different plurals for homogeneous and heterogeneous groups
* associative plurals <http://wals.info/chapter/36> contrasting with usual ("additive") plurals
* a pronoun system which treats members of your ingroup and your outgroup differently (found e.g. in Melanesia where there are often very strong and hostile group allegiances)

To finally come back round to your original question, I think the usual advice applies.  It's your conlang, do whatever you think is neat, don't let the above stop you!  But maybe you can mine it for ways to make the idea even more interesting.

Alex

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