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AUXLANG  January 2017, Week 1

AUXLANG January 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: JARRAPUA

From:

Paul Bartlett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 2 Jan 2017 17:47:20 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (186 lines)

On 2017-01-02 Robert South <[log in to unmask]> wrote (somewhat 
excerpted for brevity):

 > I don't expect adoration or a sweeping movement.  I think the main
 > reason I'm sharing this with this group is that they'll provide that
 > feedback.  It did before, very constructively.

You are welcome. Online there can be various criticism of various forms, 
but it is sometimes valuable for others to "shake down" (figuratively 
speaking) a system and give constructive feedback.

 > The mamuscules aren't that important, I just thought it would be a nice
 > added feature for that much shorter of a learning curve.  Almost a 
clearcut
 > statement up front that every effort has been made to shorten the curve.
 > Also signage  is often in caps.

Certainly this is the case that much signage is often in majuscules, but 
the matter is that more text is mixed, with most of it in minuscules, so 
I don't foresee a problem in using both. And, for that matter, I have 
seen signage just in minuscules. Is jarrapua just for signs in airports 
or on streets?

 > My fantasy is getting signage everywhere put in the local
 > language plus JARRAPUA.  I found the Romanji signage very helpful when
 > I was in Japan, but how do Russian visitors feel about it?  Actually, I
 > have a different alphabet designed for down the road someday.  I mean,
 > with only 13 letters you can do some things.  But for the meantime,
 > Roman is definitely the way to go.  Ask the Turks.

Yes, there are those who have asserted that the Latin alphabet is the 
most widespread script in the world today, so that it makes sense to use 
it. However, now that I think of it, how would jarrapua handle proper 
names or unassimilated foreign words which might be severely distorted 
in the restricted orthography? I have seen other conIALs with restricted 
orthographies which tend to mutilate proper names, especially. Even 
Esperanto comes to mind to some extent, although some others are much 
worse. (As an aside, I think that any non-standard, not now existing 
orthography or symbolism would be truly fatal for any proposed conIAL. 
It would make the language into a toy.)

 > Maybe the focus on children is a mistake.  I saw a
 > cartoon somewhere a long time ago set in a high school where in the 
background
 > you could see a poster for the Esperanto club.  I thought wouldn't 
that be
 > cool to have as alternative.  I'll be the kids would flock to it, 
given a choice.
 > But the focus should be on making something easy for adults to learn. 
  To get it
 > in schools you have to play politics.  If adults can learn a language 
then
 > it should be a snap for kids, a one semester course for proficiency 
instead
 > of two years.

This has always been a consideration. In the "early days" of a conIAL, 
most learners will be adults or at least adolescents, for whom language 
learning is more difficult. True. But again, to paraphrase Mario Pei, 
eventually we presume that an IAL would be taught to children, so ease 
of learning would be a different matter.

 > Which is why it's a design problem.  I'm not talking about seeking 
perfection of
 > existing auxlangs.  Tweaking Esperanto or making a better blended 
pan-romance  language
 > just isn't  going to drastically reduce learning times.  The only thing
 > that will do that is radical surgery: a stripped down grammar and 
extreme synethesis.
 > What that costs is a cap on fluency.  You get a language that's 
always going to be
 > awkward for everybody.

Well, it has been noted that for a worldwide auxiliary, there just is 
not enough matter common in enough of the world's languages to avoid the 
fact that for any proposed conIAL, somebody, somewhere, somehow, is just 
going to have to exert some effort to deal with some features which just 
are not familiar. This is a blunt fact of life. Of course, one idea is 
to construct an a priori language which would be approximately 
unfamiliar / difficult for more or less everybody, according to a notion 
of "fairness" (whatever that might be).

 > JARRAPUA (or jarrapua) has Sona beat, at just 242 elementary forms.

Hmmm, I am not convinced that 242 versus 375 elementary forms is such a 
great advantage, considering that (so I have read) English has 
approximately 8000 distinguishable syllables (including monosyllabic 
words, although I have not verified this claim myself, so don't hold me 
to it; but English does have at least a few thousand). See also my 
comment far down below concerning aUI's only 42 elementary forms!

 > I started with the idea that all my roots would be CVC syllables 
using just the 9 consonants and 3 vowels.
 > That I would use all those syllables, and those syllables would be 
all my roots.  Then
 > I matched the vocabulary based on the experience of trying to make 
all those reduced vocabularies, with
 > that always in the back of my mind, but without reference to them 
specifically.  Initially, I just looked for often used
 > or unique-role serving root words that (a) had something like an 
English equivalent and (b) hopefully would
 > have something like an English equivalent in reverse form.  I 
considered words good candidates for the list if
 > they are used a lot for defining other words (indicate), they are 
used a lot in common speech (place),
 > or they are hard to reduce to other words (flat) in the other two 
categories.

As I mentioned before, which comes first: a thoroughly worked out 
vocabulary and then a representational system for it, or a schematic 
representational system with a subsequent vocabulary squashed to fit the 
already decided upon and fixed representational system? Based on my 
observations, I tend to think that some language designers first choose 
a representational scheme according to some orthographic method and then 
conjure up a system of lexis squashed to fit, whether all presumably 
needful lexical items fit or not. To me, this is backwards, but it seems 
to be a common tactic. Work out a needful vocabulary scheme, and then 
*later* invent an orthography to fit, not the other way around.

 > The scope is not limited per se.  The idea is that it should be able 
to express anything, in theory.  [...]
 > Like I say, it can do anything, but it can get awkward if you ask too 
much of it.
 > If you just want to ask for the loo in the airport it would be: 
PUMUE TAT RUF(UA)RAKAE RAKEA=requestedly indicate excrete(ingness)
 > placee placedness.

It becomes a matter of how much is too much and how little is too 
little. If expressions become too cumbersome, I suspect that few people 
are going to use it for much more than asking where is the loo or how 
much for a half kilo of that stinky cheese.

 > I didn't include anything about prosodics because there aren't any. 
Everybody will speak JARRAPUA with an accent and have to speak
 > slowly.  There are no tonal elements, and you can hack the stresses 
up however you like.  I find, in reading it out loud, that I
 > naturally stress root syllables and destress the suffixes.  But 
that's just me.  Let's just say prosodics aren't used for anything,
 > no need to dictate something, maybe something will emerge.  That much 
less to have to learn.  Speak it like a transcription.

I tend to disagree. I claim that a proposed conIAL should have a 
definite, specified pronunciation. I notice that on the jarrapua webpage 
some of the pronunciations for some letters are specified as "any" this 
or that. Bad, bad mistake, in my humble opinion, at the risk of sounding 
disrespectful. A language should have a prescribed phonology, no matter 
how much it is recognized that some speakers will not meet that 
phonology perfectly. To allow that "any" this or that is acceptable 
invites sheer phonological chaos which could result in pronunciation so 
muddy around the world that intelligibility becomes severwly impaired, 
if is workable at all. Several years ago there was a group which 
proposed constructing an IAL "Demos," but the effort quickly bogged down 
over phonology. Some participants wanted to allow so many allophones for 
so many phonemes that I gave up in sheer disgust over what I genuinely 
considered an unworkable mess. (The group eventually dissolved.)

 > > On 01/01/17, Paul Bartlett<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 > > > Earlier I designed a language with about 30 basic sounds,
 > > > each of which had an apriori meaning. The idea was that
 > > > you would only have to learn those 30 sounds and then you
 > > > would be able to discern words made of them. The idea was
 > > > good, but didn't really work.
 > >
 > > Puts me in mind of Foster's Ro, although that was largely relexified
 > > English.

Actually, now that I think of it, it even more puts me in mind of 
Weilgart's aUI, "the Language of Space," which had only thirty-one 
formants plus eleven numerical forms. Each formant had a single sound 
assigned to it (the numerical forms were mostly nasals), so someone who 
could handle the sound system (quantitative long and short phonemic 
nasal vowels are a little difficult for English speakers) could speak 
all the words. He also used his own symbols, rather picturesquely, but 
they could be mapped onto the Latin alphabet with some diacritics. I am 
not aware that aUI ever really went anywhere -- although I once had 
brief email correspondence with his daughter, who claimed that the 
family sometimes used it a little at home -- but I am fortunate to own a 
copy of the book. (I find it noteworthy that the "spaceman" who 
allegedly taught the system used the decimal numbering system, as if 
he/she/it had five digits on each of just two limbs as do so many 
earthly vertebrate animals. For four or six digits on two limbs, the 
"spaceman" might have used octal or dozenal / duodecimal numbers.)

Paul Bartlett

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December 2000, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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