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CONLANG  January 2017, Week 1

CONLANG January 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Reviving Old Projects

From:

J S Jones <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 7 Jan 2017 13:58:48 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (212 lines)

I'm gratified by all the responses, and even have some ideas.

On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 13:51:58 +0000, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 07/01/2017 06:39, Virginia Keys wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 10:49:17 -0500, J S Jones wrote:
>>
>>> One issue that I've never solved satisfactorily
>>> involves quantity adverbials, which have a number of
>>> distinct usages:
>>> 5 years old - scalar degree
>>> 5 years ago - absolute time when
>>> 5 years before - relative time when
>>> for 5 years - duration.
>>> The phrase itself is simple;
>
>Is it? You haven't explained how these ideas will be
>expressed in MNCL6. Or is MNCL6 simply going to relex the
>English phrases?
>
For "5 years", I was thinking of using the instrumental case: reyo valdis as in
lo kucha reyo valdis foge. "The boy is 5 years old."
3-Att boy-Abs "5"-Att year-Ins old-Fin.

The instrumental case will also be used within the other usages. It's a bit like English but has the virtue of being simple. Other expressions, similar to the ones you give below, are still possible:
lo kucha reyo valdu rede. "The boy owns 5 years."
But this is a special case, where the verb/adjective isn't needed.

For "ago" etc. I was thinking of using a complement clause construction with "now-early" as the auxiliary verb:
lo shiila beshe da yaado minuutis ineste. "The fish was eaten 10 minutes ago."
3-Att fish-Abs eat-Fin SCT-Abs "10"-Att minute-Ins now-early-Fin

ineste "ago"
inokhme "from now"
uleste "before, earlier"
ulokhme "after, later"

Of course if I do something different for "5 years", this will have to change.

>>> the problem is how it relates to the rest of the
>>> clause or sentence in each usage. With respect to
>>> MNCL6, what case (or non-case) ending do these take?
>
>The case for the different elements in the phrases above
>surely depends upon the way these ideas will be expressed in
>MNCL6.
>
>[snip]
>
>> IMO, "5 years old" should be a vector (starting from
>> birth and proceeding in a particular direction-- forward
>> in time)
>
>Or backwards - see Latin expression below :)
>
>> and "for 5 years" should be scalar (no particular
>> direction or placement, just the length of time, a
>> scalar number).
>
>Yep - that is how I understand both the Latin and the
>English way of expressing 'x years old'. In Latin one uses
>the part participle _natus_ (masc.)/ _nata_ (fem.) = "having
>been borne", e.g.
>quinque annos nata est = she's 5 years old.
>
>Here _nata_ is nominative, agreeing with the 'understood'
>subject of _est_ "is", and _quinque annos_ is accusative
>because that is the case used for expressing 'time how
>long', i.e. scalar degree.
>
>I understand the English to be similar, except that, as
>Virginia observes, we are not looking back to birth, as in
>Latin, but forward and expressing how much we have aged
>since birth.
>
>Thus I understand that in the sentence "she is five years
>old", the adjective "old" describes "she" and will thus go
>into whatever case is used in MNCL6 for the complement of
>"to be". This has been discussed many times before on this
>list. In Latin, ancient Greek and AFAIK other IE languages
>with case systems this is the nominatives, since the
>adjective agrees with the subject. But I understand that
>the Semitic languages with case systems use use the
>accusative. There is no reason that a language may not have
>a distinct case for complements of copulas.
>
There's no distinct copula; the complement takes the same ending as finite verbs.

>I understand "5 years" to be a scalar number as Virginia
>writes and as in the Latin expression. The case must surely
>depend on the case system of MNCL6. I'm not clear on the
>usage of all the cases listed on:
>http://qiihoskeh.conlang.org/cl/o/MNCL6/M6Morph.htm
>
Unfortunately, questions like this when the documentation is necessarily incomplete.

>You could indeed have another 'durative case'.
>
I'm considering that, although I'd like to avoid the proliferation of cases. I'm trying to decide whether I actually need the temporal case or if I can just use the locative case.

>But the English and Latin methods are certainly not the only
>ways this idea may be expressed. In French, e.g. we say a
>person _has_ so many years, i.e. "She is five [years old]"
>is "Elle a cinq ans" (She has five years).
>
>AFAIK other Romance languages also use their verb "to have"
>to express age in a similar. Indeed, this use is found also
>in Classical Latin, e.g. "Cum annos quinque et octaginta
>haberet, ..." = "when he had five & eighty years ..", i.e.
>"When he was fifty eight..."
>
>Just to add to the fun, Latin also used _agere_ "to act, do,
>perform [and several other meanings]"; thus the meaning
>above could also be expressed as:
>"Cum annos quinque et octaginta ageret, ..." = "when he done
>five & eighty years ..", i.e. "When he was fifty eight..."
>
>In both examples above "annos quinque et octaginta" is
>accusative because it is the direct object of a verb
>(habere/agere).
>
>There of course there is no adjective copula complement;
>"five years" is the direct object of "have".
>
>But just for further fun, Latin could (and did) also use the
>genitive case with no word for 'old' or 'having been borne',
>e.g. puella quinque annorum = a girl of five years = a five
>year old girl.
>
>I'm darn sure that there are a few other interesting ways
>among the world's languages in which this idea is expressed.
> As I wrote above, the case(s) used will depend on how MNCL6
>will express this concept.
>
>> I would also say that "5 years ago" is actually relative
>> to the present time, and absolute would be something
>> like "in the 5th year."
>
>I agree. It's can only be absolutive if and only if the
>'ago point' is absolute. It surely relative to the 'ago
>point'. If we read that something happened "5 years ago",
>it is five years ago from the time that sentence was
>written. It may fifteen, twenty five, or 125 years ago (or
>more) since the time we read that. I cannot see how 'ago'
>can be designated 'absolute.'
>
>We have discussed at least once before on this list (I'm
>fairly certain more than once in fact) how English "five
>years ago" is parsed. I'll not repeat that.
>
In this case I didn't make up the terminology! "Absolute" (as I learned it) = relative to the time of the utterance. Terminology isn't always rational.

>Latin used _abhinc_, traditionally written as one word (the
>Romans didn't use white space to separate words) but
>obviously compounded from _ab_ = "from" + _hinc_ = "hence,
>from this place/time." The distance from this time was
>expressed once again by a scalar length of time, i.e. the
>accusative case. Therefore "five years ago" = _abhinc
>quinque annos.
>
>This might seem comparable to the English expression, but
>IIRC French does it quite different saying in effect "it has
>five years since..:, i.e. "there are five years since..." =
>'il y a cinq ans depuis ...'
>
>(My sincere apologies to Christophe & other francophones if
>I've got that wrong). Clearly if MNCL6 used a similar
>expression then the case for "five years" would depend upon
>how MNCL6 expresses 'there is/are."
>
"There are 5 years...." would be ... reyo valde.

>> Looking at some ways English uses these: "he is [5 years
>> old]" -object
>
>IMO _complement_ of a copula.
>
>> "[5 years old] is the age many kids start kindergarten"
>> -subject
>
>Interesting. This is possible in English because not only
>single words but also phrases can often slip from one part
>of speech to another without any outward morphological
>change. But clearly neither the Latin "quinque annos nata"
>(or any of the other methods given above) nor the French
>"... a cinq ans" can suddenly become the subject of a
>sentence. One would have to rephrase a and say something
>like the equivalent of "Many kids go to kindergarten when
>they are 5 years old."
>
>[snip]
>
>So in short, the cases used in 'five years old' and 'five
>years ago' will depend upon how those concepts are expressed
>in MNCL6 - the world's languages offer many different
>interesting models ;)
>
>But it seems that they may well incorporate a scalar "for 5
>years [duration]." What case? Latin was content to use the
>accusative for that. I notice MNCL6 does not have such a
>case. It's 'temporal case' AIUI expresses 'time when'
>(Latin ablative), so will not do. One could a preposition
>or have a 'durative' case.
>
>I'm sorry not to have been able to give more precise answers
>to your questions, but I hope I've given a few ideas to
>ponder :)
>
>Ray

Definitely!

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March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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