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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  January 2017, Week 1

CONLANG January 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Reviving Old Projects

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 7 Jan 2017 13:51:58 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (177 lines)

On 07/01/2017 06:39, Virginia Keys wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 10:49:17 -0500, J S Jones wrote:
>
>> One issue that I've never solved satisfactorily
>> involves quantity adverbials, which have a number of
>> distinct usages:
>> 5 years old - scalar degree
>> 5 years ago - absolute time when
>> 5 years before - relative time when
>> for 5 years - duration.
>> The phrase itself is simple;

Is it? You haven't explained how these ideas will be
expressed in MNCL6.  Or is MNCL6 simply going to relex the
English phrases?

>> the problem is how it relates to the rest of the
>> clause or sentence in each usage. With respect to
>> MNCL6, what case (or non-case) ending do these take?

The case for the different elements in the phrases above
surely depends upon the way these ideas will be expressed in
MNCL6.

[snip]

> IMO, "5 years old" should be a vector (starting from
> birth and proceeding in a particular direction-- forward
>  in time)

Or backwards - see Latin expression below   :)

> and "for 5 years" should be scalar (no particular
> direction or placement, just the length of time, a
> scalar number).

Yep - that is how I understand both the Latin and the
English way of expressing 'x years old'.  In Latin one uses
the part participle _natus_ (masc.)/ _nata_ (fem.) = "having
been borne", e.g.
quinque annos nata est = she's 5 years old.

Here _nata_ is nominative, agreeing with the 'understood'
subject of _est_ "is", and _quinque annos_ is accusative
because that is the case used for expressing 'time how
long', i.e. scalar degree.

I understand the English to be similar, except that, as
Virginia observes, we are not looking back to birth, as in
Latin, but forward and expressing how much we have aged
since birth.

Thus I understand that in the sentence "she is five years
old", the adjective "old" describes "she" and will thus go
into whatever case is used in MNCL6 for the complement of
"to be".  This has been discussed many times before on this
list.  In Latin, ancient Greek and AFAIK other IE languages
with case systems this is the nominatives, since the
adjective agrees with the subject.  But I understand that
the Semitic languages with case systems use use the
accusative.  There is no reason that a language may not have
a distinct case for complements of copulas.

I understand "5 years" to be a scalar number as Virginia
writes and as in the Latin expression.  The case must surely
depend on the case system of MNCL6.  I'm not clear on the
usage of all the cases listed on:
http://qiihoskeh.conlang.org/cl/o/MNCL6/M6Morph.htm

You could indeed have another 'durative case'.

But the English and Latin methods are certainly not the only
ways this idea may be expressed.  In French, e.g. we say a
person _has_ so many years, i.e. "She is five [years old]"
is "Elle a cinq ans" (She has five years).

AFAIK other Romance languages also use their verb "to have"
to express age in a similar.  Indeed, this use is found also
in Classical Latin, e.g. "Cum annos quinque et octaginta
haberet, ..." = "when he had five & eighty years ..", i.e.
"When he was fifty eight..."

Just to add to the fun, Latin also used _agere_ "to act, do,
perform [and several other meanings]"; thus the meaning
above could also be expressed as:
"Cum annos quinque et octaginta ageret, ..." = "when he done
five & eighty years ..", i.e. "When he was fifty eight..."

In both examples above "annos quinque et octaginta" is
accusative because it is the direct object of a verb
(habere/agere).

There of course there is no adjective copula complement;
"five years" is the direct object of "have".

But just for further fun, Latin could (and did) also use the
genitive case with no word for 'old' or 'having been borne',
e.g.  puella quinque annorum = a girl of five years = a five
year old girl.

I'm darn sure that there are a few other interesting ways
among the world's languages in which this idea is expressed.
  As I wrote above, the case(s) used will depend on how MNCL6
will express this concept.

> I would also say that "5 years ago" is actually relative
> to the present time, and absolute would be something
> like "in the 5th year."

I agree.  It's can only be absolutive if and only if the
'ago point' is absolute.  It surely relative to the 'ago
point'.  If we read that something happened "5 years ago",
it is five years ago from the time that sentence was
written. It may fifteen, twenty five, or 125 years ago (or
more) since the time we read that.  I cannot see how 'ago'
can be designated 'absolute.'

We have discussed at least once before on this list (I'm
fairly certain more than once in fact) how English "five
years ago" is parsed. I'll not repeat that.

Latin used _abhinc_, traditionally written as one word (the
Romans didn't use white space to separate words) but
obviously compounded from _ab_ = "from" + _hinc_ = "hence,
from this place/time."  The distance from this time was
expressed once again by a scalar length of time, i.e. the
accusative case. Therefore "five years ago" = _abhinc
quinque annos.

This might seem comparable to the English expression, but
IIRC French does it quite different saying in effect "it has
five years since..:, i.e. "there are five years since..." =
'il y a cinq ans depuis ...'

(My sincere apologies to Christophe & other francophones if
I've got that wrong).  Clearly if MNCL6 used a similar
expression then the case for "five years" would depend upon
how MNCL6 expresses 'there is/are."

> Looking at some ways English uses these: "he is [5 years
>  old]" -object

IMO _complement_ of a copula.

> "[5 years old] is the age many kids start kindergarten"
> -subject

Interesting.  This is possible in English because not only
single words but also phrases can often slip from one part
of speech to another without any outward morphological
change.  But clearly neither the Latin "quinque annos nata"
(or any of the other methods given above) nor the French
"... a cinq ans" can suddenly become the subject of a
sentence.  One would have to rephrase a and say something
like the equivalent of "Many kids go to kindergarten when
they are 5 years old."

[snip]

So in short, the cases used in 'five years old' and 'five
years ago' will depend upon how those concepts are expressed
in MNCL6 - the world's languages offer many different
interesting models   ;)

But it seems that they may well incorporate a scalar "for 5
years [duration]."  What case? Latin was content to use the
accusative for that.  I notice MNCL6 does not have such a
case.  It's 'temporal case' AIUI expresses 'time when'
(Latin ablative), so will not do.  One could a preposition
or have a 'durative' case.

I'm sorry not to have been able to give more precise answers
to your questions, but I hope I've given a few ideas to
ponder    :)

Ray

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