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CONLANG  February 2017, Week 4

CONLANG February 2017, Week 4

Subject:

Re: sound change resources

From:

James Kane <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 23 Feb 2017 17:39:23 +1300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (94 lines)

Hi all

> lists of sound changes, ranked from very common to attested-but-bizarre -
with notes, of course, on the environments in which they occur

The ZBB thread 'Bizarre Sound Changes' will probably be of interest:
http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=40450

> If we were to create realistic language families and areas, with as much
of reality's complications as we could manage, and then trade them off and
reconstruct each other's work sight-unseen, that would be quite a test of
the comparative method!

There have been a couple of 'games' of this sort; this is how the
collaborative Akana world started: http://akana.conlang.org

James Kane

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> I agree quite a bit with Ian in that there really doesn't seem to be much
> in the way of good empirical testing of how the comparative method actually
> works. Not to say that it's bad (it's all we've got, for one, but it's
> entirely reasonable and the best I can even imagine doing), but we really
> don't have a good sense of how accurate its reconstructions really are. We
> have very few cases where we can compare reconstructions against other
> evidence for that stage in a language - Vulgar Latin / Proto-Romance is
> really the one case, and anyone doing reconstruction on that language
> already has a good deal of familiarity with the corroborating evidence
> before they even begin reconstructing. I've heard of very old (~200s AD)
> runic inscriptions apparently lining up decently well with Proto-Germanic
> reconstructions, but I couldn't source that.
>
> All that to say, this seems to be a case where conlangs could really have
> spectacular scientific value. If we were to create realistic language
> families and areas, with as much of reality's complications as we could
> manage, and then trade them off and reconstruct each other's work
> sight-unseen, that would be quite a test of the comparative method! I'd be
> very, very interested to work on a study like this. The one fundamental
> difficulty with this kind of study would be how to judge the realism of the
> fictional diachronic processes, as the vast majority of what we believe to
> be 'realistic' is based in comparative method reconstructions already -
> rendering a part of the argument circular. There might be a useful way
> around that, I don't know; it might also be useful enough just to try a
> study like this, whether or not it's totally perfect.
> On 2017/02/22 21:21:45, Galen Buttitta <satorarepotenetoperarotas3@
> gmail.com> wrote:
> What I meant was that word-initial nasal-stop sequences, formed as a
> result of dropping the vowel in the first syllable, had a tendency to
> become ejectives in Itelmen, according to Fortescue. So:
>
> #NVS- > #NS- > #S'-
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 22, 2017, at 17:52, Alex Fink wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:27:50 +0000, Ian Spackman wrote:
> >>
> >> Huh. One of the reasons I was interested in such a resource was that I
> had no idea how to derive non-pulmonic consonants. But both from that list
> and web searches the answer seems to be that you don’t, but just
> reconstruct them for the protolanguage!
> >>
> >> I had somehow rather thought by now we would be past reconstructing
> sound systems for protolanguages that are less “probable” than those of
> extant languages. But maybe the truth is that no one really knows yet how
> these sounds arise?
> >
> > You put this differently than I would if I found the same evidence. Your
> way seems... exoticising, almost? (what's less probable about them?) I'd
> say that the presence typical classes of non-pulmonic consonants are
> *stable*. And so they are; on the whole, a language which has them tends to
> keep on having them, and one which lacks them tends to keep lacking them.
> Some changes, acquisition and/or loss, are due to areal influence.
> >
> > The Index does provide an instance of fusion forming ejectives, [t?] >
> [t_>] etc., in Lower Cayuga (this may also be what Galen was saying? but I
> don't know what NS is), and one for implosives, [?m] > [b_
> >
> > But more significant, I think, is chain shifts among phonation series.
> Sindhi for instance has implosive stops continuing the Indo-Aryan plain
> voiced stops, with new plain voiced stops from various secondary sources,
> IIRC glide fortition and outcomes of stop-and-resonant clusters, postnasal
> voicing, a Grassmann-type dissimilatory process -- I swear I wrote about
> this recently, though I can't find the message now. Ejectives have been
> said to appear in some Armenian dialects for (what we usually reconstruct
> as) plain voiceless stops of Proto-Armenian, but this is likely to be areal
> so isn't a good example.
> >
> > Alex
>

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