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CONLANG  March 2017, Week 3

CONLANG March 2017, Week 3

Subject:

Re: "A certain"

From:

A Walker Scott <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:00:13 +1100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (103 lines)

Old fairy tales, like Grimm's, are filled with references to "a certain
man/boy/woman/village/mountain, etc. The usage in anime probably comes from
exposure to these and other similar old stories. "
A certain " makes me think of folk lore. But novels from the 1800's also
make frequent use of the phrase.
In my own usage, it is normally, sarcastic/ironic, but I am quite
comfortable with the older, non-ironic use, sice I read a lot of old books.

A.

On Saturday, March 18, 2017, Melroch <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> The Swedish translation of _a certain_, _en viss_ has so strong connotaion
> of 'someone/something you know, but I won't tell you who/what' that it's
> almost impolite if not used outright sarcastically.
>
> /bpj
>
> Den 18 mar 2017 17:08 skrev "Jeffrey Brown" <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:;>>:
>
> > There are so many cultural overlays of the phrase "a certain" that it is
> > hard to give a complete meaning to the term. Consider: "She was a woman
> of
> > a certain age."
> > This mean,  more or less, She is an older woman, but in this particular
> > context, it would be impolite to state that bluntly, so as a euphemism,
> > whose meaning everyone in the conversation understands, we will say
> merely
> > that her age is advanced, but unspecified.
> > Here's how the OED describes "a certain": "Used to define things which
> the
> > mind definitely individualizes or particularizes from the general mass,
> but
> > which may be left without further identification in description; thus
> often
> > used to indicate that the speaker does not choose further to identify or
> > specify them"
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 3:12 PM, stewart fraser <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Yes … I also find the phrase “a certain school” a bit stilted. I would
> > > never say it. If I was going to expound on the school (make it from
> > > indefinite to definite in the mind of the hearer) I would introduce it
> as
> > > “this school”. Otherwise, I would simply say “a school”.  Actually
> > “school”
> > > would also be appropriate.
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Mar 17, 2017, at 9:03 PM, Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've found that 'a certain X' is almost always a translation of
> (と)あるX
> > > > ((to) aru X). This is a bit of an annoying phrase to me, since I've
> > never
> > > > seen it translated to English as anything other than 'a certain X', a
> > > > phrase that doesn't exist in my idiolect and I have only the vaguest
> > idea
> > > > of what means.
> > > >
> > > > On 17 Mar 2017 08:50, "Amanda Babcock Furrow" <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I would be very interested in an example where this happens, so I
> > could
> > > >> look up the original Japanese that they're translating from.  I
> have a
> > > >> hunch that they may be taking too literally some
> > not-yet-grammaticalized
> > > >> definiteness marking that doesn't come across as definiteness
> marking,
> > > >> perhaps of the "aru mono" variety (literally "existing thing", but
> > much
> > > >> more
> > > >> common in Japanese than "existing thing" would be in English).
> > > >>
> > > >> tylakèhlpë'fö,
> > > >> Amanda
> > > >>
> > > >> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:33:04AM +0100, taliesin the storyteller
> > > wrote:
> > > >>> Reading the "Definiteness" thread reminded me of something I react
> to
> > > in
> > > >>> subbed anime, the use of "a certain" everywhere. Example "Our story
> > > >>> takes place at a certain high school". It is grating. Is this due
> to
> > > >>> translating some definiteness-marking or other from Japanese?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> t.
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>

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