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CONLANG  April 2017, Week 2

CONLANG April 2017, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Proper names and inflections

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 9 Apr 2017 21:18:40 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (182 lines)

Having to take an Icelandic name when you become a citizen is in the law.
Giving exchange students Icelandic nicknames is of course wholly
spontaneous but really boils down to the same thing. And it's nothing new:
in the Mediaeval texts foreign names were routinely Norsified or replaced
with a similar-sounding Norse name, as when the Byzantine general Georgios
Maniaces became Gyrgi  Interestingly the adaptations of Old English names
show a high degree of awareness of sound correspondences between the two
related languages, with Æðelstán > Aðalsteinn, Æðelrǽd > Aðalráð, Wulfstán
> Ulfsteinn. All these names are still in use in Iceland. Conversely Old
English sources turn Ólafr into Anláf and Óttarr into Ohthere which reveals
a high degree of etymological awareness. OTOH Sveinn became Swegen which
reveals that spoken early eleventh century English was already essentially
Middle English. BTW modern English loans into Icelandic slang are left
uninflected except for verbs. However I was somewhat surprised to see the
ubiquitous borrowed adjective [nais] in writing in an advertisement: {næss}.

/bpj

Den 8 apr 2017 18:48 skrev "R A Brown" <[log in to unmask]>:

> On 06/04/2017 20:10, Mike S. wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 4:24 AM, R A Brown wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>
>>
>>> Hebrew names are often partially Latinized, e.g. Jesu
>>> takes the nominative -s (Jesus) and accusative -m
>>> (Jesum) but is invariable for the other cases.
>>>
>>>
>> As a side note, wouldn't you agree the declension of
>> "Jesus", irregular in Latin, is based on that of Greek
>> Ἰησοῦς, assuming you substitute final nu with -m in the
>> accusative and fill in the ablative in the obvious way?
>>
>
> Well, yes. Latin originally got all its Biblical nouns via
> Greek from either the Septuagint or the various writings
> that eventually made up the New Testament.
>
>
> [snip]
>
>> Presumably "Jesus", being a revered name, would have
>> prompted Latin speaking Christians to be extra diligent
>>
>
> It was the name of the gut we know in English as Joshua long
> before Jesus of Nazareth.  Joshua is still rendered as
> _Iēsūs_ in Latin versions of the New Testament, even Jerome
> used a form closer to the Hebrew (Iōsue) in his revisions of
> the Old Testament.
>
> in not tarnishing Jesus' name with mundane-sounding Latin
>> 4th-decl endings, even though the shape of the word
>> clearly invited them.
>>
>
> Personally I doubt whether there would have been any strong
> urge to give the noun 4th declensions endings because:
> - Iēsūs ended in -ūs which was no more the nominative ending
> of 4th declension than it was of the 2nd;
> - there are no proper nouns with 4th (or 5th) declensions
> endings in Latin.
>
> At any rate, "Jesus" is a special, interesting case.
>> For reference: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Iesus#Latin
>>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B8%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%BF%
>> E1%BF%A6%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
>>
>
> Yes,
>
>>
>>
>> which don't contradict what I have written above.
> [snip]
>
>>
>>
>> It's good to note that inflected languages need not
>> inflect *every* proper noun. To be clear, in light of the
>> OP, I was just pointing out that most languages that
>> inflect nouns do inflect proper nouns, contra the
>> initial surprise of some monoglot speakers of uninflected
>>  languages.
>>
>
> I would imagine that all inflected languages will also
> inflect 'native' proper nouns.  Why should they not?
>
> The difficulty will be in accommodating non-native nouns;
> but even there there will be tendency, e.g Kǒng Fūzǐ ->
> Confucius (gen. Confucii).
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 06/04/2017 20:26, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>
>> Indeed, in Russian a name is inflected as a noun if it
>> can
>>
> be, but a
>
>> woman's name having an unusual shape is indeclinable,
>> even
>>
> if her husband's
>
>> name is declined normally.
>>
>>
> Interesting.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 06/04/2017 16:39, David McCann wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>
>> Adapting borrowings is probably the norm in the world, as
>> shown by the Icelandic example.
>>
>
> I suspect that in languages with _fusional_ endings we will
> always get the sort of mix we find in Latin, i.e. complete
> adaptation if possible and noun is commonly use; partial
> adaptation or simple indeclinable.  MorphemeAddict's
> observation regarding Russian is interesting in that respect.
>
> The Icelandic info given by Aidan Aannestad and Melroch seem
> to imply official government policy.  It doesn't really shed
> much light on languages that develop without either
> government interference of that of a body like l'Acadamie
> française.  Also they seem to apply only to immigrants and
> visitors to Iceland.  But looking on the Internet it would
> seem that Icelandic does not do this with non-Icelandic such
> as Xi Jinping (see below).
>
> In the 16th century, the printer Henri Etienne was not
>> only Henricus Stephanus in his Latin books, but Harry
>> Stevens in his English ones!
>>
>
> Hardly surprising.  throughout the Middle Ages before
> standard forms of national languages emerged, people were
> always baptized in Latin, thus both _Henricus_ and
> _Stephanus_ had been around for a long time (Stephanus
> indeed being Biblical).  Indeed the practice continued in
> the Catholic Church right until the introduction of the
> vernacular in worship after Vatican II.  Thus my eldest son,
> Justin, was baptized 'Justinus' (but my younger son 'Martin,
> was just plain English Martin).
>
> I always wince when I see Henricus Figulus transmogrified
>> into Harrius Potter.
>>
>
> But 'Winnie the Pooh' is just 'Winnie ille Pu'   :)
>
> The Turks write an apostrophe before an inflection added
>>  to a proper noun, to avoid confusion: Bağdad'a "to
>> Baghdad", Uganda'da "to Uganda", Londra'ya, Şanghay'a,
>> etc.
>>
>
> Yes indeed - but Turkish has agglutinative flexions; I
> suspect the norm in agglutinative languages is indeed to add
> these to proper nouns. Indeed, when I look at the Turkish
> Wikipedia entry for _Xi Jinping_ I find that he becomes _Şi
> Cinping_ and looking at the entry I find the inflected form
> _Şi Cinping'i_.
>
> But both the Latin and the Icelandic entries have
> indeclinable _Xi Jinping_; interesting while the Icelandic
> entry simply has _Donald Trump_, the Latin has, exactly as I
> would expect_ the partial adaptation _Donaldus Trump_  ;)
>
> Ray
>

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