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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  April 2017, Week 4

CONLANG April 2017, Week 4

Subject:

Re: The Sith Language

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 25 Apr 2017 19:32:32 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (185 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 25/04/2017 10:12 R A Brown wrote:

> On 24/04/2017 18:12, Gage Amonette wrote:
>>>
>>> Completely ignoring practically everything as the
>>> double dots made not the slightest difference to
>>> pronunciation. It's only for looks; I'd always assumed
>>>  to make it look 'Teutonic' (or maybe 'Gothic' which
>>> would IMO be even ridiculous)
>>
>>
>> You're right: Gothic didn't even have umlaut. :)
>>
>
> Didn't even use the Roman alphabet either   :)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_alphabet
>
> But even when the Visigoths took to using the Roman
> alphabet, they did not use double-dots to denote umlaut.

Of course not; they did not have umlaut in their language, and thus had
no need for umlaut dots!

> As
> most know this symbol was first in Hellenistic Greek to
> denote _diaeresis_ as, indeed, it still is in _naïve, Noël,
> Chloë, Zoë_.

And has nothing to do with vowel qualities.

> Its use to denote umlaut in German dates from
> the late Middle Ages when a superscript _e_ was often
> written as two dots in handwriting - nothing to do with the
> Goths  :)

Just that. A superscript _e_, which has a rather n-like appearance in
German cursive, was reduced to two vertical strokes and those to two
dots. The resemblance to Greek diaeresis is a mere coincidence.

> In Mötörhead it they are merely weird decoration with no
> phonetic value.

Yep. But Motörhead (no dots on the first _o_!) did not start it. Unless
there were some unknown antecedents (see below), it were Blue Öyster
Cult. But that doesn't really matter. The point is, these dots are just
fancy decorations without phonetic value, and the proper way of dealing
with them in an environment that doesn't allow such diacritics is to
omit them. I remember a discussion in a music-related newsgroup where a
German had spelled the band name _Hüsker Dü_ as "Huesker Due", which was
widely considered a disfiguration.

But one of the first internationally noteworthy bands with umlaut dots
in the name was a German one, Amon Düül II. Herein, _Düül_ is a made-up
nonsense word; in German, this is usually pronounced /dy:l/, i.e.
reading the dots as umlaut dots (though /y:/ is never spelled _üü_ in
German); I guess most English speakers simply ignore them. (Maybe Blue
Öyster Cult got the idea from Amon Düül II, but that is uncertain; the
former did not sound as if they were influenced by the latter much,
which does not preclude the possibility that they just saw the dots on
an album cover in a record shop and decided to use them.)

> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 25/04/2017 04:35, Gage Amonette wrote:
>>>
>>> Carbon and nitrogen aren't toxic, but cyanide is quite
>>>  poisonous.  It's not the elements of a language that
>>> give it complex qualities, but how they're put
>>> together.
>>
>>
>> Probably, but I would still argue that the effect that
>> those combinations exercise on the hearers is still
>> largely one of association;
>
> I agree with Gage.  It's (largely) subjective.

Right.

> [snip]
>
>>
>> Even Tolkien,  which was mentioned by someone recently on
>> this list, followed this convention (or made it up? maybe
>> not; it seems like this motif has been firmly entrenched
>> in western thought for a long time) when he created
>> Quenya and the Black Speech.
>>
>
> Tho it should be noted that Sindarin and Quenya are in many
> respect quite different.

Indeed they are; they are of quite different phonological (and
grammatical) flavour, and there are people who like one and dislike the
other, or vice versa. It is quite easy to tell which language a given
Elvish text is in.

> Tolkien AIUI wanted Quenya to be
> noble and stately, and we know from his own writings that
> his experience of the Classical languages (Latin & Greek)
> had a major influence in the development of the language, as
> did Finnish which Tolkien greatly like when he first
> encountered the language (as indeed so did I).  Quenya comes
> out of this background which is probably why I much
> preferred the language to Sindarin when I first encountered
> the LotR in my late teens more than half a century ago.

Yes. Quenya is the "Latin" of Middle-earth; at the time of the War of
the Rings, it was hardly spoken by anyone at home (even the few
remaining Noldor had shifted to Sindarin for daily matters), but it was
still used as a scholarly and ritual language. Of course, there is no
necessity that a language used for those purposes was typologically like
Latin, but this pretty much was Tolkien's idea. And, as you say, he
liked the sound of Finnish, and added some Finnish flavour to it.

> Sindarin is clearly influence by Welsh and, to a lesser
> extent, by Old English (e.g. its vowels include OE [y] which
> is not found in Welsh).  That is why the language remains a
> favorite among those to whom Insular Celtic is "mystical"   ;)

Very much so. Sindarin is indeed very similar to Welsh in its phonology
(with similar initial mutations!), but also influenced by Old English.
You mention /y/, which occurs in OE but not in Welsh. Indeed, one
publisher complained about (an early version of) the _Quenta
Silmarillion_ that it contained too many "Celtic" names that would make
it hard to follow. Of course, actually none were Celtic: a few were
Quenya, but most in the language that would eventually be named Sindarin.

> You're right that Tolkien look to languages he thought ugly
> for the Black Speech.  But this a matter of taste.

Yep. Like when I planned to compose an opera based on _The Lord of the
Rings_ (a foolish plan that I have abandoned long ago, as the thing
would have been Wagnerian in its dimensions), I was about to
characterize Sauron by a 12-tone series because I considered 12-tone
serialist music monstrously ugly.

> Interestingly Tolkien did not hold the "mystical" view of
> Insular Celtic and while he liked and was fascinated by
> Welsh, he considered the Gaelic languages to be harsh and
> ugly.

And that tells us that he had a refined and differentiated taste of
languages. Many people aren't even aware that Welsh and Gaelic are
different languages! To Tolkien, there was nothing "mystical" about
Insular Celtic languages, or anything Celtic at all; he just liked Welsh
- and disliked Gaelic.

> I disagree with him; I find the Gaelic languages,
> with their palatalization and lenition of plosives to
> fricatives, "softer" and more attractive than Welsh (and
> none of them mystical).

I like both branches of Insular Celtic, but there is nothing "mystical"
about them to me. They are just interesting and beautiful languages,
nothing more and nothing less.

> These things are clearly (to a large extent) subjective and
> IMO have a good deal to do with the experience of one's own
> L1.  I have no doubt that someone brought up speaking, say,
> a Berber language would find _nothing_ barbarous or ugly
> when encountering pharyngeal fricatives in another language,
> but s/he might well find some English consonants ugly   ;)

Certainly! It's all subjective.

> While I can appreciate that someone may put together all the
> things s/he finds harsh or ugly in order to produce a
> barbarous conlang, I get very uneasy when people label
> particular natlangs as 'barbarous'.

So do I. By the "historical" token, German and Japanese would have to be
the most "barbarous" languages, as the worst atrocities were perpetrated
in the names of these peoples, but Japanese doesn't sound harsh at all,
with hardly any closed syllables (syllable-final _n_ tends to be
realized just as nasalization of the vowel) or consonant clusters and
all that. It's utter nonsense.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 3
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 3
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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