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CONLANG  April 2017, Week 4

CONLANG April 2017, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Direct-Inverse languages & relative clauses

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 28 Apr 2017 09:46:42 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (121 lines)

On 28 April 2017 at 04:15, J S Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 23:27:34 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>On 27 April 2017 at 22:59, J S Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:06:30 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>As I recently discovered, Valaklwuuxa has a bit of a problem with
>>>>inverse voice marker sometimes having to fill two different roles:
>>>>switching how subject & object roles are assigned to arguments, and
>>>>switching which argument is made the target of relativization. Since
>>>>relative clauses are kind of a big deal in Valaklwuuxa (every single
>>>>noun phrase obligatorily includes one), this can create some
>>>>problematic conflicts.
>>>>
>>>>In order to resolve this in a satisfactory manner, I feel like I need
>>>>to educate myself more on natural languages with direct-inverse
>>>>alignment, and particularly how they handle relative clauses and what
>>>>restrictions they have on relativization.
>>>>
>>>>So, does anybody know of good papers or other resources on these
>>>>topics that I could check out?
>>>>
>>>>-l.
>>>
>>> I'm afraid I don't have any resources (all I know is that direct-inverse languages vary, but you might look into Algonquian conjunct order if you haven't already). However, I do have questions. What kind relative clauses are you using and why does every noun phrase need one?
>>
>>Every noun phrase needs a relative clause because there are no lexical
>>nouns- so the only thing that can head a noun phrase is a free
>>relative clause. Since most of the language is relative clauses, they
>>are extremely light-weight. Currently, if a subject is specified, the
>>clause is either a complement clause or a main clause; if a subject is
>>not specified, it's a relative clause with a relativized subject. This
>>means most relative clauses are only one word long (plus whatever
>>words make up successively embedded clauses), and they kind of might
>>as well be nouns except for their obvious inflectional morphology.
>>
>>> Also, I would think that there would be only 1 pair of arguments: either proximate and obviative or relativized and other.
>>
>>There is. The difficulty comes from a conflict between how roles are
>>assigned to each argument in the pair, and how one is selected for
>>relativization.
>>
>>Say you have a typical transitive verb that assigns an agent role to
>>its subject and a patient role to its object. In direct voice, the
>>proximate argument becomes the subject and the agent, while the
>>obviative argument becomes the object and patient. But what if we want
>>to express a situation in which the obviative argument is actually the
>>agent? Well, then we use the inverse voice, which reverses the usual
>>role assignments and makes the obviative argument both the subject and
>>the agent and makes the proximate argument both the object and the
>>patient. So far, so good. So what if you want to relativize the
>>patient? Well, you try to use the inverse voice to reverse the role
>>assignments... but it's reversing the case (subject vs. object)
>>assignments at the same time, so you're stuck!
>>
>>So, there need to be separate mechanisms for reshuffling case
>>assignments, changing what the subject and object are or otherwise
>>changing which argument is relativized, vs. reshuffling the assignment
>>of semantic roles to each case.
>>
>>It's not too hard to come up with workable ways to manage that, but,
>>like I said, I don't think I can feel satisfied with one without
>>having a better idea of how natlangs actually do it.
>>
>>-l.
>
> I'm still missing something. What do you need subject and object for? For example, suppose you had nouns:
> finite:
>   woman crows help-DIR-FIN. "The woman helps the crows."
>   woman crows help-INV-FIN. "The crows help the woman."
> relative:
>   crows help-DIR "who helps crows"
>   crows help-INV "who crows help"
> Cases aren't needed either--you could mark crows-OBV if you wanted free word order.

The problem is much more apparent with pronominal arguments, which
make relative position on the animacy hierarchy much more obvious (it
also makes it possible to fit the example in a single clause-
Valaklwuuxa, like many Salish languages, disallows multiple
non-pronominal arguments in a single clause).

So, consider "You help the woman":

you woman help-DIR

(V. word order is actually verb-initial, and pronouns are incorporated
into the verb via polypersonal agreement, but none of that really
matters here.)

"The woman helps you" becomes

you woman help-INV

Now, there are four relative clauses we might want to make:

"you who help the woman"
you REL woman help-DIR

"the woman who helps you"
woman REL you help-INV

"you whom the woman helps"
you REL woman help-?
It can't be direct, because that would make "you" the agent, which
isn't what we want, and it can't be inverse because that would make
"woman" the relativized argument, which also isn't what we want.

"the woman whom you help"
woman REL you help-?
It can't be direct, because that would make "you" the relativized
argument, which isn't what we want, and it can't be inverse, because
that would make "you" the patient, which also isn't what we want.

> The difficulty *I* have is the complete lack of lexical nouns. It seems to me that relative univalent verbs (effectively) are needed.

That is correct. The words for "woman" <lwuuxa> and "crow" (or "bird",
the closest thing I have right now) <keke> are both intransitive
predicates.

-l.

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