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CONLANG  April 2017, Week 4

CONLANG April 2017, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Direct-Inverse languages & relative clauses

From:

J S Jones <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 28 Apr 2017 18:24:35 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (135 lines)

On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 09:46:42 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 28 April 2017 at 04:15, J S Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 23:27:34 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>>On 27 April 2017 at 22:59, J S Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:06:30 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>As I recently discovered, Valaklwuuxa has a bit of a problem with
>>>>>inverse voice marker sometimes having to fill two different roles:
>>>>>switching how subject & object roles are assigned to arguments, and
>>>>>switching which argument is made the target of relativization. Since
>>>>>relative clauses are kind of a big deal in Valaklwuuxa (every single
>>>>>noun phrase obligatorily includes one), this can create some
>>>>>problematic conflicts.
>>>>>
>>>>>In order to resolve this in a satisfactory manner, I feel like I need
>>>>>to educate myself more on natural languages with direct-inverse
>>>>>alignment, and particularly how they handle relative clauses and what
>>>>>restrictions they have on relativization.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, does anybody know of good papers or other resources on these
>>>>>topics that I could check out?
>>>>>
>>>>>-l.
>>>>
>>>> I'm afraid I don't have any resources (all I know is that direct-inverse languages vary, but you might look into Algonquian conjunct order if you haven't already). However, I do have questions. What kind relative clauses are you using and why does every noun phrase need one?
>>>
>>>Every noun phrase needs a relative clause because there are no lexical
>>>nouns- so the only thing that can head a noun phrase is a free
>>>relative clause. Since most of the language is relative clauses, they
>>>are extremely light-weight. Currently, if a subject is specified, the
>>>clause is either a complement clause or a main clause; if a subject is
>>>not specified, it's a relative clause with a relativized subject. This
>>>means most relative clauses are only one word long (plus whatever
>>>words make up successively embedded clauses), and they kind of might
>>>as well be nouns except for their obvious inflectional morphology.
>>>
>>>> Also, I would think that there would be only 1 pair of arguments: either proximate and obviative or relativized and other.
>>>
>>>There is. The difficulty comes from a conflict between how roles are
>>>assigned to each argument in the pair, and how one is selected for
>>>relativization.
>>>
>>>Say you have a typical transitive verb that assigns an agent role to
>>>its subject and a patient role to its object. In direct voice, the
>>>proximate argument becomes the subject and the agent, while the
>>>obviative argument becomes the object and patient. But what if we want
>>>to express a situation in which the obviative argument is actually the
>>>agent? Well, then we use the inverse voice, which reverses the usual
>>>role assignments and makes the obviative argument both the subject and
>>>the agent and makes the proximate argument both the object and the
>>>patient. So far, so good. So what if you want to relativize the
>>>patient? Well, you try to use the inverse voice to reverse the role
>>>assignments... but it's reversing the case (subject vs. object)
>>>assignments at the same time, so you're stuck!
>>>
>>>So, there need to be separate mechanisms for reshuffling case
>>>assignments, changing what the subject and object are or otherwise
>>>changing which argument is relativized, vs. reshuffling the assignment
>>>of semantic roles to each case.
>>>
>>>It's not too hard to come up with workable ways to manage that, but,
>>>like I said, I don't think I can feel satisfied with one without
>>>having a better idea of how natlangs actually do it.
>>>
>>>-l.
>>
>> I'm still missing something. What do you need subject and object for? For example, suppose you had nouns:
>> finite:
>>   woman crows help-DIR-FIN. "The woman helps the crows."
>>   woman crows help-INV-FIN. "The crows help the woman."
>> relative:
>>   crows help-DIR "who helps crows"
>>   crows help-INV "who crows help"
>> Cases aren't needed either--you could mark crows-OBV if you wanted free word order.
>
>The problem is much more apparent with pronominal arguments, which
>make relative position on the animacy hierarchy much more obvious (it
>also makes it possible to fit the example in a single clause-
>Valaklwuuxa, like many Salish languages, disallows multiple
>non-pronominal arguments in a single clause).
>
>So, consider "You help the woman":
>
>you woman help-DIR
>
>(V. word order is actually verb-initial, and pronouns are incorporated
>into the verb via polypersonal agreement, but none of that really
>matters here.)
>
>"The woman helps you" becomes
>
>you woman help-INV
>
>Now, there are four relative clauses we might want to make:
>
I think I see the problem. Are you using internally headed relative clauses? If so, you *do* need a 2nd marker to specify which argument of the relative clause belongs to the matrix clause, along with the direct-inverse marker. Normally, this is added to the relativized phrase. However, you have a pronominal affix for one argument, making this difficult. But ignoring that:

>"you who help the woman"
>you REL woman help-DIR
>
>"the woman who helps you"
>woman REL you help-INV
>
>"you whom the woman helps"
>you REL woman help-?
>It can't be direct, because that would make "you" the agent, which
>isn't what we want, and it can't be inverse because that would make
>"woman" the relativized argument, which also isn't what we want.
>
No, the relativized element is always followed by REL here, independently of the inversion, so:
you REL woman help-INV

>"the woman whom you help"
>woman REL you help-?
>It can't be direct, because that would make "you" the relativized
>argument, which isn't what we want, and it can't be inverse, because
>that would make "you" the patient, which also isn't what we want.
>
Likewise:
woman REL you help-DIR

Does this help?

Jeff

>> The difficulty *I* have is the complete lack of lexical nouns. It seems to me that relative univalent verbs (effectively) are needed.
>
>That is correct. The words for "woman" <lwuuxa> and "crow" (or "bird",
>the closest thing I have right now) <keke> are both intransitive
>predicates.
>
>-l.

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