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CONLANG  May 2017, Week 1

CONLANG May 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Atlantis

From:

Daniel Swanson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 7 May 2017 13:14:57 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (191 lines)

> And that makes all localization hypotheses pretty pointless. After all,
> nobody seriously claims to have found Narnia or The Shire anywhere in
> the real world.

Well, last fall I did give a presentation demonstrating that Scandinavian
rock art depicts the events of the Silmarillion....

On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On 06/05/2017 20:43 R A Brown wrote:
>
> > As some may recall I moved house at the end of September.
> > Because we plan to have some alterations made, quite a bit
> > of my stuff is still in boxes, waiting to be unpacked!  One
> > these was Umberto Eco's "The Book of Legendary Lands."  In
> > view of this thread, I searched for it this afternoon and
> > found it  :)
> >
> > I put greater trust in its treatment of these legendary
> > lands than I do in Wikipedia's.
>
> Fair. Wikipedia is sometimes wrong (see the article on Eteocretan we
> corrected a few years ago), and it is unwise to use it as the sole
> source. But professionally edited works can also be wrong, and it is
> always wise to consult as many sources as possible.
>
> >
> > So:
> >
> > On 06/05/2017 16:48, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> >> Hallo conlangers!
> >>
> >> [...]
> >> Certainly, the Atlantis story can't have happened the
> >> way Plato tells it,
> >
> > Why should it?  Plato uses 'mythoi' to illustrate points;
> > one of best known, I guess, is the mythos of the cave which
> > occurs in 'The Republic'(514a–520a).  No one supposes that
> > there actually was such a cave inhabited by such prisoners.
>
> Right. Some people claim that Plato said that it was a "true story", but
> it is actually one of his *characters* who says that, which of course
> doesn't really mean anything. Lots of tales are called "true" by
> characters in fiction.
>
> > I note Eco treats Atlantis in the same chapter as the
> > legendary Mu and Lemuria.
>
> And rightly so. Lemuria started as a scientific hypothesis by which some
> biologists tried to explain how the lemurs (small monkey-like animals)
> made it to Madagascar; it would soon have been forgotten if it had not
> been for Ernst Haeckel (one of the founding fathers of evolutionary
> biology, but even the greatest minds sometimes have bad ideas) who
> hypothesized that the cradle of humanity may have stood on this lost
> continent, which was where esoteric cranks and pulp fantasy writers
> picked up the concept.
>
> Science has meanwhile abandoned the idea, but that doesn't deter
> crackpots and fantasy fans from continuing to play with it.
>
> Mu is the invention of a crackpot (Augustus Le Plongeon) popularized by
> another crackpot (James Churchward). None of the three "lost continents"
> ever existed. This, of course, is no reason not to make conlangs of them ;)
>
> > [snip]
> >
> >>>> though Plato may have woven parts of true stories
> >>>> into his fabric that he had picked up in various
> >>>> places. He perhaps took the geography from
> >>>> Hyperborea/Britain,
> >>>
> >>> Not the hyperboreans about whom there are at least as
> >>> many theories, ranging from sort of plausible to
> >>> outright crankiness!    :(
> >>>
> >>> The identification of hyperborea with Britain is, I
> >>> think, first made by Hekataios of Abdera in the 4th
> >>> cent BC,
> >
> > Misled by Wikipedia.  On checking, Hekataios merely says it
> > is an island in the ocean "no smaller than Sicily in size",
> > from which it is possible to see the moon close up.
>
> I once read (in a secondary source, namely a compendium of fictional
> places named "From Atlantis to Utopia") that Hyperborea was meant to lie
> "opposite the land of the Celts", and a round temple of Apollo is
> mentioned which may be Stonehenge. (Of course, there is quite some nutty
> stuff in circulation about Stonehenge, too!) But you can't see the Moon
> closer up from Britain than from anywhere else on Earth, of course.
>
> > By 'ocean' he means the sea beyond the Med on the other side
> > of the 'Pillars of Herakles', i.e. straights of Gibraltar -
> > namely, the Atlantic Ocean.  But there are other islands in
> > the Atlantic larger than Sicily besides Britain, such as
> > Ireland and Iceland.  But from none of these can you see the
> > close up.
>
> Sure.
>
> > Eco deals with Hyperborea in the same chapter as Thule
> > which, according to the Greek explorer Pytheas, is in the
> > north Atlantic and is a land of fire and ice in which the
> > sun never sets.  It sounds to me remarkably like Iceland in
> > mid-summer   :)
>
> Yep. "Land of fire and ice" characterizes Iceland very well. And the Sun
> only very briefly dips below the horizon there in summer (it *does* dip,
> as the island lies just south of the Arctic Circle, but barely so),
> without anything that deserves the name "night".
>
> > But Eco deals with Thule and the hyperboreans in the same
> > chapter mainly because the two legends/myths became bound up
> > with one another among the ancients.  I had forgotten that
> > Hyperborea figured in Nazi occultism as the birthday of what
> > they considered to be the "Aryan Race."
>
> Thule and Hyperborea are indeed often identified with each other, after
> all, they are both mythological countries in the far north. But it is
> all buttocks. As for the "Aryan Race", this is again an abandoned
> scholarly concept (that the Indo-European languages descend from
> Sanskrit, which has _arya_ as the designation for its own speakers; and
> that language families coincide with "races") adopted and carried on by
> crackpots - dangerous crackpots in this case.
>
> > But with the best will in the world I find nothing in Eco's
> > book to suggest that Hyperbrea was Britain.
>
> OK. The idea that Hyperborea was Britain is just a fanciful *modern*
> interpretation of some ancient Greek writings like my idea that the
> geography of Plato's Atlantis may be based on Britain.
>
> >> Fair. Atlantis is no more real than Middle-earth, Narnia
> >> or the Ringworld. It's just the fanciful invention of a
> >> single author. Hyperborea is just as unreal, though its
> >> authorship is unknown.
> >
> > Agreed.
>
> And that makes all localization hypotheses pretty pointless. After all,
> nobody seriously claims to have found Narnia or The Shire anywhere in
> the real world.
>
> >>> In my view, to look for echoes of factual history in
> >>> Plato's Atlantis mythos is about as valuable as
> >>> looking for echoes of actual history in Middle Earth
> >>> and in Narnia.
> >>
> >> I understand. There are of course people who consider
> >> such endeavours interesting, and I don't think such
> >> discussions are utterly out of place here.
> >
> > I'm sure some people do find these things interesting and I
> > suspect there are lists somewhere on the Internet where such
> > things are discussed.
>
> Surely there are (though I don't know them); but that's not really my
> kind of game. I don't seriously believe Atlantis or Hyperborea to be
> real, nor that there really was a sophisticated civilization in
> prehistoric Britain. My Elves are *fictional*, even if they are placed
> in a real-world location. We have no archaeological evidence of them!
>
> > But I think solid fact and caution
> > are needed, lest legends get abused for political, religious
> > or racist reasons.
>
> Such reasons are often readily apparent in localization hypotheses. A
> northern German parson named Jürgen Spanuth, for instance, once located
> Atlantis in northern Germany, with the capital at Heligoland. Clearly
> local patriotism run amok! Also, he published his hypothesis with a
> notoriously right-wing publishing company.
>
> >
> > Tread with caution - there be dragons there   :)
>
> Certainly!
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>



-- 
Daniel Swanson, Certified Geek

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July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
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September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
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October 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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