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CONLANG  May 2017, Week 3

CONLANG May 2017, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Are These Sound Changes Reasonable?

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 21 May 2017 05:06:49 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (137 lines)

On Sat, 20 May 2017 17:20:50 -0500, Daniel Swanson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Initial inventory:
>pbtdkg
>mn
>l
>aeiou
>ɛɪɔʊ
>ãẽĩõũ

OK, the noteworthy thing here is that nasal vowels don't contrast for laxity.

>Syllable structure: S(l)V(N/l)(S)

No onset nasals, then!  Nor plain /l/.  And no extant restrictions on clusters?

>Initial stress

On Sat, 20 May 2017 15:18:11 -0500, Daniel Swanson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>1. p and b degeminate

I don't see why this would be restricted by place of articulation.  Maybe if it was part of a chain shift?  e.g. it's common to have [p] > [f] when not adjacent to another labial, after which [pp] > [p] would fill a gap.

>2. p and b become f and v between [tdkg] and vowels

OK but kind of strange that a following [l] blocks this.

>3. p and b become m between m and nasal vowels
>4. m followed by p or b becomes bb
>5. p,b,t,d assimilate to m,n before nasal vowels

The theme of nasality and nonnasality both spreading leftward is good.  But again, I see no reason why there should be restrictions on place of assimilation on this group of changes.  I'd expect them even to introduce [ŋ].  

And it's also strange that [l] should block nasalisation.  Walker (1998) has apparently proposed a hierarchy of susceptibility to nasal hierarchy on which liquids come before stops: that is, if stops get nasalised, so should [l].  (Probably just to [l~] which is unlikely to become phonemic.)  Your process isn't much in the way of harmony, but it's something close at least.

If [l] does block nasalisation, so that you have e.g. [bã blã] > [mã blã], then the presence of [l] becomes redundant with the orality of the preceding consonant, and so would be in prime position to get lost, unless vowel nasality got lost first.

>6. t and d become ɾ between vowels unless the vowels are
>[eẽɛiĩɪuũʊ]__[iĩɪuũʊ]

I don't think I've seen a change like this but I can sort of imagine that an environment of high vowels could block a lenition, given that high vowels tend to be fractionally shorter than low, so consonants might be fractionally longer near them in response.  But curious that all the /e/-type vowels are higher than all the /o/-type ones.  Maybe the contrast you're transcribing as laxity is really ±ATR or the like, which makes it easier to say that "[ɛ]" is higher than "[o]".

Also, I note lots of places where voicing doesn't matter, here and in the last set.  I guess the difference between voiced and voiceless stops was narrow at this stage.

>7. ã becomes ɛ in initial syllables (always stressed)

Given this and #16, your [ã] is probably really more like [æ̃].  But stressed syllables are, I'd think, the least likely position to lose a contast like nasality.  If you really want this change, maybe you can move the stress around in the interim.  

If this was just to set up the deletion in #9, there's no need; just put an "unstressed" condition there.

>8. word-final l becomes r after [eẽɛiĩɪuũʊ]

Reminds me a bit of Bantu languages like Tswana in which [d] is an allophone of /l/ before high vowels.

>9. ã is deleted and ẽ > ĩ > ũ > õ > ã

!!!!  I guess you're not deleting any stressed vowels, after #7, but it's still weird to just have one vowel quality vanish like that, unless the vowel in question is distinguished by being shorter than any of the others or whatnot, which is not especially likely for [ã].  

And your cyclic rotation is too tidy; and if there were upheavals this large in the vowel system they'd probably affect oral vowels too, which since they contrast more qualities are as it were under more tension.  If there was a quality change proper to nasal vowels I'd expect it to be raising or lowering or breaking which happens independently of frontness.  [i] > [u] (nasality aside) is especially perplexing; the opposite direction is common and happens through intermediates like [y] or [ɨ], but I can't think of ever having seen this direction.

>10. ng becomes ŋ

This probably implies a more general nasal assimilation change, or at the very least an [n] assimilation change.  So include [nk] > [ŋk], and maybe [nb np] > [mb mp].

Now if in fact you didn't have /ŋ/ at this stage, [ŋg] > [ŋ] is a very natural relaxation.  But as above I think you shòuld get some free-standing [ŋ] from an extension of #5, which saps this motivation.

>11. word-initial k becomes x
>12. g becomes ɣ

OK.  

>13. t and d become ts and dz before high vowels

Good, though what's the definition of high?  Are the vowels you're notating [ɪ ʊ] high?  One might expect a change like #13 not to proceed in front of [ɪ ʊ], as a way of amplifying the difference between these vowels and [i u].

>14. pt,pd,bt,bd become pp,bb,bb,bb

Progressive assimilation is rare, because the phonetic cues to consonant place are strongest before a vowel, so in (V)CCV it's the first C whose place of articulation is likeliest to yield to the other's.

Also if there's going to be voicing assimilation in stop+stop clusters, I don't see why it would restrict itself to [pd] and [bt].  (Some introductions to sound change talk about total vs. partial assimilation.  Those are good words to have when writing a diachronic phonology sketch, I guess, but they're not AFAIK descriptively natural: there is no special force in favour of assimilations being total, above and beyond that exerted by the individual features separately.)

>15. all geminates simplify

Always OK in principle, I think.

>16. word-final ãĩõũ become aiou and elsewhere æɪɔʊ

Given that I think #9 makes no sense maybe detailed comments on this are moot.  But a change like this would be tied in with how the nasal vowels behave with respect to the tense vs. lax feature, that they don't contrast for, in other contexts.

>17. word-initial x is deleted

That is all instances of [x], right?  Unless there's been some univerbation in the interim.  But OK.

>18. word-initial bdg are deleted

Surprising to happen all at once like that, especially if stress is still initial.  Changes like this do happen in northern Australian languages, but everything's somehow backward there.  I think the underlying reason is that they pay more attention to VC transitions than CV ones -- and that's probably not what your language is doing, given e.g. #13.  Otherwise I'm reminded of the pre-Basque loss of fortis word-initial stops (probably through passing to aspirates then [h]), or the loss between PIE and Spanish of most initial *bh *dh *gh (via Latin [f h]).  

Also, there's no [g] left, you turned them all to [ɣ].  [ɣ] should probably have a high propensity to delete, though maybe you meant it to.

>19. word-final ptk are deleted

But not [b d g]?  I guess it còuld happen, if for example earlier /p t k/ were realised glottalised and vanished via passing to glottal stop.

>20. ɾ is deleted before high vowels

Sure, I've seen things like this in Japonic.

>21. ɾ becomes r after aæoɔ

Huh.  Probably possible?  But more likely not to be conditioned by vowel quality, but to be unconditioned, or to be conditioned by something else with a stronger influence on duration, like stress or word extremality or clusteredness.

>22. ts metathesizes to st between vowels

Let's see.  The resulting [st)] is probably still uniphonemic at this point.  So does it make sense that the metathesis would be retarded by a preceding consonant?  Given that stops, and [t] in particular, are easy to lose between two obstruents (since they're hard to detect with no CV or VC transition), one might almost expect [st)] to be even more favoured after a consonant.  But that's if the segment had to contrast with [s], which is does not here.  So perhaps [ts)] after a consonant should just simplify to [s].  Then you get at this stage a nice phoneme /s/ which is [s] after a consonant but [st)] after a vowel.  That's cute.

It's possible that [dz)] be wholly unaffected by all this but perhaps likelier that it take part.  Voiced affricates tend simplify to fricatives sooner than voiceless do, e.g.

>23. l is deleted between eɛiɪuʊ and fv

Conditioned [l] loss is good.  But if I haven't lost track you don't have any [f v] after [l].  You only have them from #2, which operates after [t d k g]; some will have secondarily come to be after [p b].

>24. t and d become s and z between vowels and l

Aversion to the clusters [tl dl] is very natural.  I don't think I've seen this resolution of them before, but perhaps it's OK.

Again I wouldn't expect a preceding vowel to be necessary.  Most likely [t d] are just dropped between a consonant and [l], or the like.

>25. s is inserted between m and n

Incomprehensible.  The phonetic transition between [m] and [n] is nothing like [s].  At a pinch a change like this could be a hypercorrection against [s] loss between [m] and [n], but you don't have [s] in that position.


If there's something I think you need more of, it's vowel changes, conditioned and un-.  Your oral vowel system is pretty crammed and might be expected to simplify, for example by merger of [e ɪ] and of [o ʊ] like mainstream Romance or by centralising some of the lax vowels, or else to twist in some other way (look e.g. at some of the vowel shifts that have happened in modern English varieties).  Or if the laxity feature is really ±ATR, that likes to undergo harmony.  You could also consider reducing (including laxing!) unstressed vowels.

Alex

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May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
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November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
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August 1999, Week 4
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
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November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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