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CONLANG  June 2017, Week 1

CONLANG June 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Heterogenous Conjunctions

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 1 Jun 2017 12:50:05 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (56 lines)

On 1 June 2017 at 11:50, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:59:35 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>On 1 June 2017 at 09:28, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 May 2017 17:21:19 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In English, the same set of coordinating conjunctions can be used to
>>>>join elements of nearly any syntactic type. E.g., you can have <verb>
>>>>"and" <verb>, <noun> "and" <noun>, <clause> "and" <clause>, etc., and
>>>>the form "and" never changes. Same with "or", "nor", "not...but", etc.
>>>
>>> The fact that you can conjoin nearly any syntactic type is one of these things that strikes me as really weird notwithstanding that my native language does it.  Like, if I didn't know a language in which "songs by and for children" was grammatical, I'd raise a pretty big eyebrow to see a conlang do it.
>>
>>Indeed! It's not particularly unusual for some words to accept
>>multiple types of complements (like verbs that can have clausal or
>>nominal objects), but coordinating conjunctions seem to be the only
>>ones which enforce type constraints between multiple arguments.
>>
>>In type-theoretic notation, while most words that govern obligatory
>>complements have type signatures like a -> b, where 'a' and 'b'
>>represent specific concrete syntactic types, it is not at all unusual
>>to have words with signatures like A -> b or even A -> B -> c, where
>>one or two arguments can be of varying different types, even though
>>the head is still a concrete type. But coordinating conjunctions seem
>>to be the *only* class that allows types of the form A -> A -> A,
>>which is weird in *two different ways*! Firstly, that the arguments
>>can be of varying types, but two arguments must be of the *same* type;
>>and secondly, that the syntactic category of the head is determined by
>>(and must be the same as) the type of the arguments!
>>
>>It's very, very engelangy.
>
> You state my intuitions much better than I did!
>
>>On the other hand, though, it seems overly unwieldy to have separate
>>classes of conjunctions for *every* possible syntactic type, so some
>>amount of parametric polymorphism seems inevitable in any usable
>>language (except perhaps for language with extremely simple syntax and
>>few parts of speech, like my recently sketched proto-Avelian).
>
> Here I disagree.  I think that an otherwise syntactically rich language where only NPs and clauses are coordinable at all could be entirely usable.  The other sorts of coordination that I can readily think of can either be lifted out to an NP or clause -- "I dance with Erin and go on walks with her" -- or converted to simple recursion -- "songs by children, for children"; or "brief separate concurrence" for "[brief and separate] concurrence" (to steal an example from Sai's morning reading).

Ah, you're absolutely correct. I didn't quite finish thinking that
through. I had in mind that it would be unusable if you had lots of
different syntactic types, *and* different conjunctions for
coordinating *all* of them. If you restrict what types are
coordinable, I agree, that should work just fine.

It occurs to me, however, that there is another natural distinction
which could be relevant to coordination: complete phrases vs. items
with open argument slots. That would result in grouping together
nouns, simple adjectives, and clauses, while grouping verbs and
adpositions (e.g., "for and by") in a separate class.

-l.

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