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CONLANG  July 2017, Week 3

CONLANG July 2017, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Are colors innate or learned

From:

Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 15 Jul 2017 11:07:40 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

Wow. So many comments.
The reason I posted that article was because, as far as I know, it is the
first such experiment on color discrimination done on preverbal humans
(i.e. infants). All other experiments have been done on adults, where the
linguistic and cultural influences are pronounced.
Yes, of course, healthy adults with normal vision see millions of shades of
color, but no language has millions of color words. We tend to partition
the universe of color into only several or a dozen categories, but those
specific categories differ based on language and culture.
As for Berlin and Kay's work, their conclusions have been, if not
discredited, at least severely weakened by issues with their experimental
methodology. Wierzbicka has a summary of some of the problems in some paper
somewhere. The problem she illumined is that different cultures have
different semantics for colors. In English, and other WENSA langs, color is
a separable attribute, A chair can be red or green or black, or repainted
any shade you want. In other languages, it is not so clearly separate. In
some languages, the word for "green" really means "plant-like." If I hold
up a color chip and say, "Is this plant-like?" what do you say? Or if I
give you two chips to compare and ask, "Which is more plant-like?" The
questions seem almost nonsensical. In fact, some languages do not have a
word for "color." Yes, they all have color words, like "black" or "white"
or "red", not not all languages have an abstract word that means "color."
Semantically, "color" apparently is not perceived as a separable attribute
in those languages. It is not that Berlin and Kay were entirely wrong --
it's rather that what they say is not universal, rather more of a tendency.
And so...  what the article is claiming, is that, even though there may be
millions of color shades, some of them seem more "visually prominent" even
before language acquisition.
Jeffrey


On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 5:52 AM, Jyri Lehtinen <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> >
> > Not everyone even calls the sky blue. There's a popular linguistics book
> > by Guy Deutscher (Through the Language Glass) where he describes the
> story
> > of I think it was his daughter, who he carefully avoided ever mentioning
> > the colour of the sky, but let her find out the names for everything else
> > just like normal. When he brought her out on a clear day and asked her
> what
> > colour the sky was, she said 'white'.
> >
>
> Did she by any chance also call the night sky gold?
>
> But really, calling the clear day sky white is not that far out at all. At
> the sea level the sky often appears pretty bright and pale in colour,
> especially in the more humid climates. If your mental map of blue for
> example is restricted more towards the darker colours, calling something
> light and not very saturated as "white" is a pretty reasonable thing to do.
> It does strike me as odd as well that the daughter would have fully avoided
> hearing anyone, not just her dad, calling the sky blue, but it might still
> be entirely possible. After all, how often do any of you bother to say out
> loud the colours of everyday phenomena?
>
> By the way, the twilight sky provides more of these "what colour is this"
> tests since it contains lots of interesting colours that the vast majority
> of people never bother to name. What do you think is the colour of the
> transition you can see between the orange or yellow around the setting sun
> and the blueish hues further away? Or what about the gradient between the
> strange greenish and pinkish tints that appear on the opposite side of the
> sky after the sunset? My guess is that, if you'd ask enough people to name
> these colours, you'd start to get answers that seem mutually contradictory.
>
>    -Jyri
>

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