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CONLANG  July 2017, Week 3

CONLANG July 2017, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Are colors innate or learned

From:

Seth KAZAN <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 15 Jul 2017 22:22:14 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (90 lines)

The wikipedia article linked here is certainly an a posteriori constatation
of this...
the proeminency is also depending of how many color is searched (and with
color words bias of the searcher language)...

2017-07-15 20:07 GMT+02:00 Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]>:

> Wow. So many comments.
> The reason I posted that article was because, as far as I know, it is the
> first such experiment on color discrimination done on preverbal humans
> (i.e. infants). All other experiments have been done on adults, where the
> linguistic and cultural influences are pronounced.
> Yes, of course, healthy adults with normal vision see millions of shades of
> color, but no language has millions of color words. We tend to partition
> the universe of color into only several or a dozen categories, but those
> specific categories differ based on language and culture.
> As for Berlin and Kay's work, their conclusions have been, if not
> discredited, at least severely weakened by issues with their experimental
> methodology. Wierzbicka has a summary of some of the problems in some paper
> somewhere. The problem she illumined is that different cultures have
> different semantics for colors. In English, and other WENSA langs, color is
> a separable attribute, A chair can be red or green or black, or repainted
> any shade you want. In other languages, it is not so clearly separate. In
> some languages, the word for "green" really means "plant-like." If I hold
> up a color chip and say, "Is this plant-like?" what do you say? Or if I
> give you two chips to compare and ask, "Which is more plant-like?" The
> questions seem almost nonsensical. In fact, some languages do not have a
> word for "color." Yes, they all have color words, like "black" or "white"
> or "red", not not all languages have an abstract word that means "color."
> Semantically, "color" apparently is not perceived as a separable attribute
> in those languages. It is not that Berlin and Kay were entirely wrong --
> it's rather that what they say is not universal, rather more of a tendency.
> And so...  what the article is claiming, is that, even though there may be
> millions of color shades, some of them seem more "visually prominent" even
> before language acquisition.
> Jeffrey
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 5:52 AM, Jyri Lehtinen <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Not everyone even calls the sky blue. There's a popular linguistics
> book
> > > by Guy Deutscher (Through the Language Glass) where he describes the
> > story
> > > of I think it was his daughter, who he carefully avoided ever
> mentioning
> > > the colour of the sky, but let her find out the names for everything
> else
> > > just like normal. When he brought her out on a clear day and asked her
> > what
> > > colour the sky was, she said 'white'.
> > >
> >
> > Did she by any chance also call the night sky gold?
> >
> > But really, calling the clear day sky white is not that far out at all.
> At
> > the sea level the sky often appears pretty bright and pale in colour,
> > especially in the more humid climates. If your mental map of blue for
> > example is restricted more towards the darker colours, calling something
> > light and not very saturated as "white" is a pretty reasonable thing to
> do.
> > It does strike me as odd as well that the daughter would have fully
> avoided
> > hearing anyone, not just her dad, calling the sky blue, but it might
> still
> > be entirely possible. After all, how often do any of you bother to say
> out
> > loud the colours of everyday phenomena?
> >
> > By the way, the twilight sky provides more of these "what colour is this"
> > tests since it contains lots of interesting colours that the vast
> majority
> > of people never bother to name. What do you think is the colour of the
> > transition you can see between the orange or yellow around the setting
> sun
> > and the blueish hues further away? Or what about the gradient between the
> > strange greenish and pinkish tints that appear on the opposite side of
> the
> > sky after the sunset? My guess is that, if you'd ask enough people to
> name
> > these colours, you'd start to get answers that seem mutually
> contradictory.
> >
> >    -Jyri
> >
>

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