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CONLANG  July 2017, Week 5

CONLANG July 2017, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Reform to Chinese orthography

From:

Gage Amonette <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 30 Jul 2017 15:33:14 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

> I know of no other natlang orthographies that use _c_ exclusively to
> denote /k/.

Old English uses it pretty exclusively, although it is a dead language.

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On 30/07/2017 21:30 Raymond Brown wrote:
>
> > On 30/07/2017 13:43, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> >> Hallo conlangers!
> >>
> >> On 30/07/2017 12:04 Raymond Brown wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> (strange to me) _b, p, bh_ and _d, t, dh_.   I can, however,
> >> understand from a Chinese perspective, why he
> >> wanted single symbols for the aspirates and, if digraphs had to be
> >> used, using them for the voiced series, -
> >> however, using _h_ to show voicing does seem odd.
> >> It does! That kind of spelling suggests that the language is like the
> >> standard reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European, with
> >> voicleless/voiced/breathy-voiced triads!
> >
> > It would seem, from BJP's comment, that we have tenuis, aspirated and
> > breathy-voiced triads.
>
> I did not know that! Well, Chinese never was my field of expertise, but
> now as you say that, I dimly remember reading somewhere (Wikipedia?)
> that either Old Chinese or Middle Chinese had
> tenuis/aspirated/*breathy*-voiced triads. The most, from a western
> standpoint, straightforward way of writing them would be _t/th/dh_, but
> _d/t/dh_ is more economic, and makes sense considering that aspirated
> stops are found all over the board, while Mandarin lacks the
> breathy-voiced stops.
>
> It would be an interesting challenge to come up with a pan-Chinese
> romanization of which Pinyin is a proper subset, i.e. when spelling
> Mandarin with it, you get Pinyin. Is there such a system on the market?
> Or is it possible at all?
>
> >> Using _h_ for voicing is
> >> bizarre;
> >
> > Apparently for breathy-voiced or, as the Wikipedia page says (which I
> > should have read
> > more carefully) "muddy"
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Chinese
>
> That actually looks quite sensible, though I am not an expert on Chinese
> phonology ;) Using a digraph for breathy voice rather than for
> aspiration is probably quite economic because many Chinese dialects
> (AFAIK, the whole of Mandarin) lack breathy-voiced stops, but none (or
> only few) lack aspirated stops.
>
> > [snip]
> >>> The use of _c_ = /k/ is questionable.
> >> It is. Of course, /k/ is the "original" (i.e., Classical Latin) value of
> >> _c_, and it still is in Welsh and Irish (also, inspired by that, in the
> >> standard romanizations of Quenya and Sindarin).
> >
> > Middle Irish use of _c_ =/k/ is, I guess, inherited from pre-Medieval
> > Latin usage;
> > the modern Irish & Scots prthographies are derived from Middle irish
> > orthography.
>
> Yes.
>
> > But the modern Welsh use of _c_ = /k/ is not a retention of Latin
> > usage.  It is a
> > post-Medieval innovation, dating from 16th century because,
> > apparently, printers did/
> > /not have /e/nough _k_ letters in their type cases "as the Welsh
> > requireth."
> > In Medieval Welsh /k/ was very frequently spelled _k_ - always so
> > before front vowels.
> > The adoption of using _c_ universally for /k/ was almost certainly due
> > to this use in
> > William Morgan's Welsh Bible of 1588; this use was not liked by many
> > at the time.
>
> Yes, I have seen _k_ in Middle Welsh in various examples, e.g. in
> etymological dictionaries.
>
> >> But many languages use
> >> it differently.
> >
> > I know of no other natlang orthographies that use _c_ exclusively to
> > denote /k/.
>
> I see. I don't know of any, either!
>
> Actually, I have been considering changing Old Albic _c_ /k/ into _k_,
> but that would require doing a query-search-and-replace over all of the
> files I have (The query, of course, would be necessary since the _c_s in
> the glosses and other accompanying texts must not be replaced!). This is
> not a native orthography anyway; the ancient Elves of course had their
> own alphabet for it. And the transcription is intrafictionally based on
> the orthography of Avalonian, a daughter language with a somewhat
> Welsh-like phonology, and whoever devised the orthography of that
> language, may have been influenced by the Celtic usages of his time.
> (No, the Avalonian orthography does not ape Welsh the way Brithenig
> does. It has _c_ for /k/, but is otherwise more straightforward from an
> extra-Celtic viewpoint.)
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>

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