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CONLANG  August 2017, Week 1

CONLANG August 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Reform to Chinese orthography

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 1 Aug 2017 08:47:47 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (91 lines)

On 01/08/2017 07:53, Decremental Bug wrote:
> While I know nothing of Chinese or its various romanizations, I do know of
> logic and decency. I object to this sentence -
>
> "Surely if the Chinese can cope with learning a few
>> thousand Hanzi, learning the correct Roman spelling, which we anglophones
>> and my francophone friends do, should
>> be no problem."
>
> This sentence sounds like "If you can cope with problem A, why can't you
> also cope with problem B ?" - which is absurd, insensitive and rude.
>

I'm sorry if you thought it rude.  I was perhaps showing exasperation in 
trying to
understand somethinng.

As far as I could understand it was being said that Chinese hanzi are 
better than Romanizations as
they distinguished between homophones.

If you want a Romanization that distinguishes between homophones then 
you have, surely,
do what we do with words like _write, wright, right, rite_ or French 
with _si, six (before
consonants), scie, scies, scient_ etc, i.e. have spellings which are not 
predictable
but have to be learnt.

Yet I had read an objection to Yuan Ren Chao's General Chinese 
Romanization that
"[a] person cannot fully predict the spelling of a word ...".

Surely that is to be expected if you want an alphabetic system that 
distinguishes homophones?
What I fail utterly to understand is why learning thousands of different 
hanzi is OK, but
dealing with alphabetic spellings which are not predictable but have to 
be learnt is apparently
not.

Maybe I'm biased in that I was not a good speller when I was at school 
and had to work hard
to master the intracasies of English spelling.  Perhaps I expressed it a 
bit strongly, but I
cannot see how if one can cope with a writing system with thousands of 
distinct characters,
dealing with a spelling system like English, French or many others where 
the spelling of a
word cannot be predicted but has to be learnt should be an objection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 31/07/2017 20:57, Victor Chan wrote:
> On 31 Jul 2017 13:35, Raymond Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> Maybe senility is kicking in, but you've left me quite confused.
>> Ray
> I was just making an objective evaluation of General Chinese; not objection to it.

OK.  But in English the words 'write, wright, rite, right' which we now 
all pronounce the
same way were once all four pronounced differently.  The spelling 
reflects the pronunciation
of Middle English. But people who use modern English do not have to know 
this; we just learn
the different spellings with their meanings.  In the same way, as far as 
I can see, if
General Chinese were to be used, people would just learn the spellings 
of the different
homophones; they would no more have to know "know the spoken form of all 
the input dialects"
than we have to know the past history of our language.
> For the Hanzi part, you are too focused on phonemic cues as the predictor of the written form of a spoken word when semantic cues can additionally be used to specify the correct Chinese character of a spoken word.

Not at all.

But I've re-read the bit that mystified me:
"A person cannot fully predict the spelling of a word unless they know 
the spoken form of all the input dialects.
This is in contrast to the Chinese characters which distinguish 
homophones with semantic marker."

Are you suggesting that rather than have unpredictable spellings like 
'write, wright, rite, right' we do
have one Romanization and distinguish the homophones with a semantic marker?

Still confused and rather wishing I hadn't got involved in this thread.  :(

Ray

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