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CONLANG  August 2017, Week 1

CONLANG August 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Reform to Chinese orthography

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 2 Aug 2017 21:29:05 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (178 lines)

The "homophone problem" should not be overrated. It is good to remember
that all those homophonous morphemes don't endanger *spoken* communication
at very much if at all since context normally take away the ambiguity. The
Wikipedia page on General Chinese says that for any given 'dialect' less
than 20% of the 10_000 most common "words" -- by which probably is meant
the *morphemes* corresponding to characters, which mostly are combined in
pairs or triplets to form words in the Western sense -- are both spelled
and pronounced the same in General Chinese, and most or even all of the
time these will be disambiguated by context.

I think that modern Hanzi users are conditioned to think that homophonous
morphemes must be all disambiguated in spelling not only because with Hanzi
most homophonous morphemes do have a distinct written form each, but
because Classical Chinese (Wenyan) if read out with a modern pronunciation
is indeed ambiguous beyond intelligibility, as Yuen Ren Chao himself
demonstrated in a very funny way: <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/
index.php?title=Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den>. The same is however
absolutely not true of modern spoken Chinese or else people would not be
able to speak with each other, but the fact is of course that spoken
communication works just as smoothly in modern Chinese 'dialects' as in any
language. A modern written Chinese which were even more freed from the
legacy of Classical Chinese than the present one would have no "homophone
problem" whatever, just as Vietnamese doesn't have any. It could in
principle be written in any phonetic script without any real ambiguity.
(The same is BTW true of Japanese.) The real appeal of General Chinese is
that just like Vietnamese orthography its "historical depth" allows it to
function as a written form of many modern dialects simultaneously.

As it happens I once experimented with a similar scheme for Germanic
languages, where words would essentially be written in a Common Germanic
garb, but with the phonemes spelled with digraphs and diacritics which
would make it 'easier' to accomodate to the pronunciation of the various
modern languages. For example the Common Germanic phoneme which scholars
usually write *au was written _eao_ e.g. in _ḑeaom_ corresponding to
English _dream_, German _traum_, Dutch _droom_, Swedish _dröm_ and
Icelandic _draumur_ /ˈtrœɥmʏr/;_sieţea(n)_ = _sit, sitzen, zitten, sitta,
sitja_; _ṣtåen_ = _stone, Stein /ʃtaɪn/ steen, sten, steinn_. Unlike Chao
I was constrained by the Latin-based orthographies of the modern Germanic
languages and the presence of numerous Latin and Greek loanwords, so unlike
General Chinese General Germanic was doomed to be a ridiculous kludge from
the start.

Den 2 aug 2017 11:33 skrev "Raymond Brown" <[log in to unmask]>:

> Thanks, Vitor, for reminding me of the first email.  Things tend to
> get lost as thread develops.  Indeed, if I had been more careful I
> would not have misundertood one of Victor's later remarks and over-
> reacted.  My apologies to Victor again.
>
> Now, going back to Victor's first email, it does suggest at least two
> intersting lines of development which could be fun to explore. To make
> amends for my intemperate reply to a misunderstanding, I give longish and,
> I hope, more considered comments below.
>
> On 02/08/2017 02:50, Vítor De Araújo wrote:
>
>> On 01/08/2017 04:47, Raymond Brown wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>> But I've re-read the bit that mystified me:
>>> "A person cannot fully predict the spelling of a word unless they know
>>> the spoken form of all the input dialects.
>>> This is in contrast to the Chinese characters which distinguish
>>> homophones with semantic marker."
>>>
>>> Are you suggesting that rather than have unpredictable spellings like
>>> 'write, wright, rite, right' we do
>>> have one Romanization and distinguish the homophones with a semantic
>>> marker?
>>>
>> I understood that a system like that was being proposed in the first
>> e-mail ("Alternatively, a set of highly simplified Chinese characters
>> could be used in place of silent letters."), i.e., you'd write (a
>> variety of) Chinese with a fully predictable romanization and then add a
>> semantic marker (similar to determinatives in cuneiform writing)
>>
>
> Or determinatives in Egyptian hieroglyphs.  :)
>
>>   to
>> disambiguate homophones. I like that idea, though it might perhaps fit
>> better with bopomofo (or hangul!) rather than pinyin.
>>
> Aestethically, it would, I agree, fit better with bopomofo.
>
> But a hybrid system would be interesting.  In the original email, unless I
> have
> misunderstodd, tone markers were included among 'silent letters' (See
> below). If we're
> to have a hybrid system, I would think it better to reserve the simplified
> Chinese
> character bit solely for determatives.  I would _suggest_:
> 1. Fully predicatable Romanization of phonetic element (either PInyin or
> some similar
> system);
> 2. A tone marker *
> 3. Simplified Chinese determiner.
>
> * Possibly the numersls 1-4 of the Wade-Giles system but, better IMO,
> special symbols.
> The IPA tone symbols seem rather kludgey to me.  In his "The World's Chief
> Languages"
> (1949), Mario Pei used the symbols   ‾ ∕  √  ∖ for four tones of Mandarin.
>
> Pei in fact put the tone symbols in front of his Romanization.  The order
> in which the
> three elements I listed above are written need not be in the order I wrote
> above.  There
> is, infact, no reason why one shouldn't write: determiner, tone-marker,
> phonetics _or_
> determiner, phonetics, tone-marker etc, as long as a consistent order is
> adopted.
>
> But let me make one thing clear: I am _not_ advocating the above as an
> "official" written
> system for Chinese.  I merely say that such a system might be interesting
> and could be fun
> to devise - though _personally_ I have grave reservations about reviving
> determiners à la
> cuneiform or ancient Egyptian in a modern writing system.
>
> But to return to the first part of Victor's first email:
> "The Western phonemic alphabetical system cannot fully replace Chinese
> characters since it
> cannot distinguish the many homophones in many East Asian languages.
> However, the alphabetical
> system can be modified to reserve some independent letters for tones and
> some silent letters
> to distinguish homophones. The silent letters can also simultaneously
> indicate semantic features.
> This hypothetical alphabet system does not allow the full spelling of a
> word to be predicted
> solely by their pronunciation..."
>
> I am not convinced by the first sentence.  Vietnamese shows that the Roman
> alphabet can be adapted
> to write a tonal language with monosyllabic morphemes; and I understand
> Vietnamese also has
> homophones, but they seem to cope:
> https://www.quora.com/Are-there-many-homonyms-in-Vietnamese-
> If-so-how-do-people-cope-with-them
>
> However, leaving that aside, reserving some independent letters for tones
> is, of course, not only
> feasible but was actually done in the Gwoyeu Romatzyh system of Chinese
> Romanization; it is also
> done in Zuang, Hmong and Miao:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_letter#Non-IPA_systems
>
> I'm not sure of the feasibility of using some silent letters to indicate
> semantic meaning (i.e.
> as determiners).  It seems to me that the paucity of alphabetic symbols
> would not give enough
> spare ones to use as determiners.
>
> I do agree 100%, however, that in an alphabetic system in which homophones
> are distinguished
> the "system does not allow the full spelling of a word to be predicted
> solely by their pronunciation"
> - which is why I over-reacted when I misunderstood Victor and thought he
> was critizing General
> Chinese because the full spelling couldn't be predicted solely by
> contemporary pronunciation.
>
> I have said that I think an alphabetization of Chinese in which homophones
> are (mostly) distinguished
> could best be arrived at by devising a pseudo-historical Romanization of
> Middle Chinese and then
> developing it as, e.g. happened in English and French - languages which
> both have a large number of
> homophones and whose writing systems essentially reflect a pronunciation
> of more than half a millennium
> in the past.  BPJ (aka Melroch) comments well on this in his recent email
> and I'll not repeat it here.
>
> Ray
>

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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 3
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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