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CONLANG  September 2017, Week 1

CONLANG September 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Why doesn't English permit tl or dl as true consonant combinations?

From:

Leo Moser <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 1 Sep 2017 12:40:58 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (70 lines)

'Quirk' may be too strong a word, but it is a feature of English, the Latinate languages, etc.

          -----There is no WHY. -----

There need not be logic to phonemic patterns.

Check the following for logic:

English has shriek but does not normally tolerate things like *sreek. Yet it has sleek!

   (Syllable initial sr- is very common in the languages of the sub-continent and elsewhere.)

English uses fl- and fr- very commonly ; but uses vl- only in certain foreign words—vr- hardly at all.

English uses spr- and spl- very commonly ; but not sbl or zbl-, etc.

English uses šr- rather commonly ; but not šl-, or zr-.

ETC.

Of course, the spelling TL was used by the Spaniards for spelling out the Nahuatl (Aztec) palatal affricative /tɬ/. Found in the original of words like ; tomato (from Nahuatl tomatl); coyote (from Nahuatl coyotl); avocado (from Nahuatl ahuacatl).

……..

So it you want your words to seem very un-English, you could end many of them with –tl.

If in this alphabet, it could give a rather Aztec look, however; perhaps not what you’d want.

Maybe best to start syllables with sounds like tla-, dla-, sru-, vli-, vri-, šla, zdu, hra-. jwa- (dzhw-), zhd-, kpa-, gba-, etc. etc. etc. These are IMO as pronounceable by humans as those combos allowed in the various dialects of English.

If you’re dealing with non-humans, the sky’s the limit.

                                                        Best wishes, LEO



Leo Moser

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kevin Walker
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 3:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why doesn't English permit tl or dl as true consonant combinations?

 

On Aug 29, 2017 7:11 PM, "Matthew George" < <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]> wrote:

 

It may be the case that combination is frequently lost. But that doesn't address my question as to WHY. Merely noting that languages tend to lose that combination over time (if that is in fact the case) doesn't explain anything, it's just an observation.

 

 

Fair enough - I was more trying to address suggestions that it is a quirk of English.

 

If it is not, might it have something to do with homorganic clusters? I know that I have trouble pronouncing g and k followed by a guttural R and pv and bv also seem harder to do than tv dv kv and gv when I try them (granted not perfectly homorganic, but still).

 

When I release a stop I quickly and forcefully release my tongue from the place of articulation. If I want to make another sound in the same place I need to bring my mouth back to the same position it is being moved quickly away from, which requires a bit of finesse. The same problem is not there if I want to move my mouth to a different position. But I am not clear on how different or the same a lateral is from a regular in terms of position...

 

Anyway that's a stab.

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