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CONLANG  September 2017, Week 1

CONLANG September 2017, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Word order

From:

Guilherme Holzmann dos Santos <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 1 Sep 2017 20:34:04 -0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (156 lines)

> Romance languages (I'm passable in Spanish, and I understand
>> French/Italian/etc. are similar) are SVO by default in a simple
>> declarative sentence. They switch to SOV if the object is a
>> pronoun. A sentence becomes VSO if you're asking a question -- but
>> OVS if you're asking a question with a pronoun object.
>
> Except for French and Swiss Romantsch (and Rumanian?), VS is used for
> existential and presentational statements:
> Sp. Viven gitanos en las cuevas. There are Gypsies living in the caves.
> Pt. Apareceu um homem no jardim. A man appeared in the garden.
> It. Domani saranno riaperti il porto. The port will reopen tomorrow.
> Occitan. Seguís un chapitre sus la metatèsi. A chapter on metathesis
> follows.
> Friulan. Era patla granda. There was a lot of mud.
> Sardinian. Sun vénnitos tres ómines. Three men arrived.
> I've used that in Liburnese:
> ’Arivad ajer Juan. John arrived yesterday.


Portuguese doesn't have any movements on questions, and, in the variants
(most spoken brazilian forms AFAICT) where the oblique forms of the
pronouns have mostly fallen out of use, doesn't display movements in
clauses with pronouns either.

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
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2017-09-01 17:42 GMT-03:00 Jyri Lehtinen <[log in to unmask]>:

> Yeah, I don't think I've seen any language where the choice of word order
> definitely wouldn't carry any information with it.
>
> With this in mind, the basic word order in Kišta is Top ... Foc V with
> non-topical elements not part of the core information focus mostly coming
> between Top and Foc. The verb can also be topical which leads to V initial
> word order (for example existential clauses, as discussed above). Two
> important additions to this scheme are that afterthoughts can be added
> after the verb (especially heavier ones like dependent clauses) and
> contrastive elements are moved to the absolute start of the sentence. This
> means that contrastive focus always precedes the sentence topic. One
> category that lives in this contrastive slot are all interrogatives except
> for verbs inflected in the interrogative mode for polar questions and all
> words followed by a focus clitic.
>
> I guess that this means that the most common word orders in Kišta are SOV,
> OSV, and AdvSOV.
>
> -Jyri
>
>
> 2017-09-01 20:15 GMT+02:00 Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > Word order variation is almost universally an information structure
> > question - things move to mark them as topic, focus, and so on. (There's
> a
> > few other reasons, but those are unusual.) Even English does this a lot,
> > but it's hidden, as the rigidity of English's word order rules force you
> to
> > have to rephrase things to make it valid (eg fronting with the 'it's the
> X
> > which Y Z-ed' construction). Because of this, I don't believe in 'free
> word
> > order' - it's not free at all, it's just governed by pragmatics rather
> than
> > syntax.
> >
> > On 1 Sep 2017 12:03, "Daniel Bowman" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Angosey is strict VSO, except for a few verbs that seem to switch it to
> > > VOS. A particular one is the verb "to assay." A few others too. I'm
> > not
> > > sure how to explain these idiosyncrasies diachronically. Suggestions?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 10:41 Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have several conlang sketches (which could probably be considered
> > > > slightly different versions of the same sketch) where each phrase is
> > > > marked.
> > > >
> > > > The subject is unmarked, which identifies it as the subject.
> > > > The verb phrase uses words unique to verb phrases, thus marking it.
> > > > All other phrases, including the direct object, are marked with
> > > > "prepositions".
> > > >
> > > > Word order within the phrase is strictly enforced, but every possible
> > > > phrase order is equally comprehensible:
> > > >
> > > > 1. [John] [gave] [to Mary] [li a gift].
> > > > 2. John gave li a gift to Mary.
> > > > 3. John to Mary gave li a gift.
> > > > 4. John to Mary li a gift gave.
> > > > 5. John li a gift to Mary gave.
> > > > 6. John li a gift gave to Mary.
> > > > 7. Gave John to Mary li a gift.
> > > > 8. Gave John li a gift to Mary.
> > > > 9. Gave to Mary John li a gift.
> > > > 10. Gave to Mary li a gift John.
> > > > 11. Gave li a gift John to Mary.
> > > > 12. Gave li a gift to Mary John.
> > > > 13. To Mary John gave li a gift.
> > > > 14. To Mary John li a gift gave.
> > > > 15. To Mary gave John li a gift.
> > > > 16. To Mary gave li a gift John.
> > > > 17. To Mary li a gift John gave.
> > > > 18. To Mary li a gift gave John.
> > > > 19. Li a gift John gave to Mary.
> > > > 20. Li a gift John to Mary gave.
> > > > 21. Li a gift gave John to Mary.
> > > > 22. Li a gift gave to Mary John.
> > > > 23. Li a gift to Mary John gave.
> > > > 24. Li a gift to Mary gave John.
> > > >
> > > > Prepositional phrases are, of course, also marked by a preposition,
> so
> > > they
> > > > can be placed anywhere:
> > > >
> > > > [For her birthday] gave li a gift to Mary John.
> > > > Gave [for her birthday] li a gift to Mary John.
> > > > Gave li a gift [for her birthday] to Mary John.
> > > > Gave li a gift to Mary [for her birthday] John.
> > > > Gave li a gift to Mary John [for her birthday].
> > > >
> > > > When the subject is located a long distance from the verb it may also
> > be
> > > > marked with a verbish sort of word, possibly a detached tense marker:
> > > >
> > > > Gave for her birthday li a gift to Mary [did John].
> > > > or:
> > > > Give for her birthday li a gift to Mary did John. (with present tense
> > > main
> > > > verb)
> > > >
> > > > --gary
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 5:12 AM, C. Brickner <
> > [log in to unmask]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > How strict are you in maintaining the word order you have given to
> > your
> > > > > conlangs? What are the reasons that you deviate from this word
> order?
> > > I'm
> > > > > especially interested in SVO.
> > > > > Charlie
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 3
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October 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
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December 2002, Week 1
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October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
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April 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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