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CONLANG  September 2017, Week 3

CONLANG September 2017, Week 3

Subject:

Re: A Ceqli puzzle (wasRe: Rex May)

From:

"Mike S." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 17 Sep 2017 16:34:41 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (154 lines)

On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 3:44 AM, Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>
> That I would like to know.  Arika Okrent seems inconsistent with dates
> of Internet published conlangs.  For example, she dates And Rosta's
> Livagian as 1991 - five years before the date she gives for Ceqli.  But
> AFAIK And has not published the language and in an email I recall he was
> puzzled by Okrent's date.  Possibly a snippet of "Ur-Livagian" in an
> email or something?
>
> Also I cannot find gua\spi listed at all by Okrent, though that language
> was certainly published on the www:
> http://www.jfcarter.net/~jimc/guaspi/
>
>
That *is* odd. In 1991, Carter published a reform of Lojban notable enough
(IMHO) to be included on Okrent's list.  Livagian and some of its features
have been mentioned over the years on both the Conlang and Lojban mailing
lists, but it remains unpublished AFAIK, and the only actual sample I
recall ever seeing appeared in Conlang Relay 9, which ran in 2004 --
http://eaworld.conlang.org/relays/relay9/ring3/livagian/

Hard to imagine, but could it be that Okrent mixed up the two languages'
names somehow?





>
> Maybe I'd better find time to trawl the ancient archive fragments.
>
> Ray
>

I'll share a couple things I found.  I figured that conversations about
Loglanoid reforms would have arisen naturally on the Lojban list years ago,
so I tried to search the archives of that list first.  I discovered that
both Guaspi and Ceqli were in clearly recognizable proto-form as early as
1990, though apparently Ceqli did not have its public name yet, but rather
was being presented as a proposed reform of Loglan (as explained below).

First, as for Carter's lang, Guaspi is mentioned by name in late 1989 --
http://www.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/8912/msg00008.html -- in an email
addressed to Carter and CCed to the list:

I'm glad that you seem to be receiving the list.  A few months ago I
sent you a query about -gua!spi and received no answer. :(

Why don't you take the opportunity to tell us all a little about it.
I'm sure everyone would be interested in at least knowing about it.

-est

So, Jim Carter's language was known by its ultimate name (ignoring tone
mark changes) at least as early as mid-1989.  How and where he was talking
about it, however, I didn't immediately find -- this is an example of the
fragmentation that plagues the early archives.  He replies to the query in
Jan 1990 -- http://www.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9004/msg00000.html --;
here's a snippet:

--Design Summary: Morphology.  There are 11 V phonemes: aeiouylmnrw (y as in
knIt, w as in stroNG).  There are 14 regular C's: bcdfgjkpqstvxz (c as in
CHew, q as in SHoe, x as in breZHnev, no h).  A word (including foreign
words) is one or more C's and one or more V's.  Each word also has a tone in
the Chinese manner, which cues grammatical structure.


That's essentially Guaspi as we know it.  There's a couple other historical
tidbits about Guaspi to be gleaned from the Lojban wikis (note there is a
new wiki i.e. the "MediaWiki" @ "mw.lojban.org",  and an old wiki i.e. the
"Tiki" @ "tiki.lojban.org").  Apparently there was a sequence of stages
prior to the emergence of Guaspi -- https://mw.lojban.org/papri/nalgol  --.
Quote:

Nalgol is the language by Jim Carter aiming "to improve a minor point in
Loglan <https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Loglan>" by totally redoing a mass of
major design features.

Nalgol was a prt of the following evolution: Loglan > Nalgol > Djimbraon >
-gzn !gvr > gua\spi <https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gua%5Cspi>.
("Nalgol" is Loglan spelled backwards. I believe this name was someone's
intended knock against Carter's reform proposals.).  The old wiki ("Tiki")
-- http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/Nalgol -- indicates that "The original one
was, I think, Jim Carter's back in the late 70s.".  Nota bene the old
Lojban "Tiki" is often difficult to comprehend because it contains
conversations involving multiple participants that are sometimes less than
perfectly delimited.  Here though it seems clear that John Cowan is
confirming that Carter began developing his ideas in the 1970s.

Also worth noting is this jumble of text from
http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/Gua%5Cspi --


   - *I got into Lojban from -gua!spi, probably the only person who ever
   has. --John Cowan <http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/John+Cowan>*
   - ''I can't quite claim the same, but I think I ftp-ed info on Loglan
   <http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/Loglan> and
   - -gua!spi from Mark Shoulson <http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/Mark+Shoulson>'s
   old Planned Language Server
   <http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/Planned+Language+Server> before I knew of
   Lojban.'' --And <http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/And+Rosta>


Unfortunately, Shoulson's FTP server was taken down many years ago.


Next -- moving on to Ceqli.  The word "ceqli" apparently doesn't show up on
the old Lojban mailing list until October 1997, and what does appear sheds
little light on the history.  (The variant names "tceqli" and "txeqli" do
not show up at all.)  I next searched "Rex" on the list and got directed to
interesting information.  In Oct 1992, Bob "Lojbab" LeChevalier wrote --
http://www.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00001.html -- in part:

Rex May proposed what JCB
call "Rexlan" which if I recall refuses to make a name/brivla distinction,
or a cmavo/brivla distinction.  All words are some number of C followed by
some number of V followed by l/m/n/r.  The simplest of these are the cmavo.


Searching "rexlan" and "loglan" together and Google gets us somewhere. In
1990, JC Brown wrote a critique of "Rexlan" in the Loglan newsletter
"Lognet" --
http://www.loglan.org/Articles2/defense-of-Loglan-morphology2.html --.
This same issue was contained the article detailing Rex May's proposal to
reform Loglan's morphology, "A Critique of Loglan Morphology with
Suggestions for a New International Language" --
http://www.loglan.org/Articles2/critique-of-Loglan-morphology2.html --.

May's proposal contains all the major distinctive elements of Ceqli,
including his favored vocabulary-choosing scheme, but not Ceqli's name.
Intriguing is this statement:

What I propose here is a development of my old “RMR” suggestion of several
years ago [*"Rex May's Revolution".—Ed.*], and it requires redefinition of
letters to some extent.

Searching further for "Rex May's Revolution" leads nowhere, but the
statement suggests the possibility that Ceqli had its earliest roots some
time in the mid 1980s.

This information I found so far is by no means exhaustive, but it helps
paint the picture of the origins of these two languages.

-Mike


-- 
co ma'a mke

Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com <http://xorban.wordpress.com/>
My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com <http://loglang.wordpress.com/>

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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 3
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 1
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June 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
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August 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 4
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December 1998, Week 5
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