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CONLANG  September 2017, Week 3

CONLANG September 2017, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Reform of pinyin

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:31:43 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

The digraphs <sx zx cx> seem fine to me, but then I'm used to reading
iksoj-Esperanto.

I agree that letters for tone seems problematic. IMO, it'd be better to go
with the old ASCII tradition of sticking a digit after the syllable if you
are avoiding diacritics for some reason.

Introducing <ŋ> to replace <ng> when you already have other digraphs seems
strange, though. Why not just use the IPA letters for all of them? Is
<ŋ> really
any easier to type or read than <ɕ
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_sibilant>> or <ʂ>?

On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:32 PM, Guilherme Holzmann dos Santos <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> <sx zx cx> are in my humble opinion some of the ugliest possible
> orthographic choices. Anything short of tone letters is prettier than
> those.<v> for /ɥ/ is much less of an issue than the Cx series. On the other
> hand your rationale there is sound, but i'd use <sj zj cj> instead, unless
> there is some form of ambiguity there i haven't seen.
>
> 2017-09-17 20:53 GMT-03:00 Mike S. <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Victor Chan <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I had now studied the phonology of Standard Mandarin and pinyin. I had
> > > read some past threads from 2000. Anyway, I consider <x, j, q> to be an
> > > allophone of the three series. Regardless of its allophone status, <x,
> j,
> > > q> should be indicated with the same symbols as one of three phoneme
> > series
> > > to reserve independent letters for tones.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, it seems wasteful to use those three letters up like that.  And I
> > really never cared for the Pinyin use of <q> or <x>, though that's just a
> > personal opinion.
> >
> > Just for fun, my "reform" quickly:
> >
> > - <m n p t k b d g c z s f h r l w ch zh sh> stay the same.
> >
> > - <x> indicates palatalized pronunciation, just as <h> indicates
> > retroflex.  So Pinyin <x, j, q> become <sx, zx, cx> if showing the
> palatal
> > pronunciation explicitly is desired.  This letter can be ignored when
> using
> > the system for entering hanzi on computers.  You can write <s, z, c> or
> <h,
> > g, k> to indicate archaic pronunciations, in rare cases where the old
> > distinctions are retained, in Chinese opera or wherever.  You can also
> > write <hx, gx, kx> if you really wanted to, to indicate a historically
> > velar pronunciation that's been palatalized, though I am not sure this
> > would be needed.
> >
> > - <ŋ> becomes the standard way to write the coda <ng>.  I believe Pinyin
> > already allows this but it seems little used, at least in the Western
> text
> > I've see.
> >
> > - <q> is reserved as a substitute for <ŋ>, due to its similar shape,
> where
> > <
> > ŋ> causes a problem for printing.  Getting rid of <ng> takes a load off
> the
> > eyes.
> >
> > - <j> is redeployed to replace most of uses of Pinyin <y>; in other words
> > <j> is the "pseudo-initial" semivowel form of <i>.  So Pinyin <yi>
> becomes
> > <ji>.
> >
> > - <y> is now the rounded high front vowel, replacing <ü> (which is
> written
> > <u> after palatals, but now we can be consistent).  Thus the tone
> diacritic
> > never has to be stacked on top of the umlaut.
> >
> > - <y̆>, i.e. y with breve, is the semivowel counterpart of <y>, replacing
> > <yu->, if needed or desired.  I don't think it's needed though; you could
> > just as well write <jy> or <wy> for <yu> i.e. /y/, without a (true)
> initial
> > consonant.  But y-breve is there if necessary, or if consistency is
> > desired.
> >
> > - <v> is reserved as a substitute for <y̆>.  But, again, this is probably
> > not needed.  And that's good, because using <v> for anything other than
> /v/
> > and similar sounds is ugly.
> >
> > What I like most about my system is the parallelism between <sh, zh, ch>
> > and <sx, zx, cx>; more generally, all the affricates and sibilants start
> > with one of <s, z, c>.  I am sure I am not the first person to have this
> > idea, of course.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I now have another idea to represent the <x, j, q>: use <h, g, k> in
> > place
> > > of <x, j, q> instead of <ir> for the syllabic consonant. <v> could then
> > be
> > > used to represent [y]. On further modification to prevent ambiguity in
> > > syllable boundary, <q> could be used to represent phonemically null
> > > initial. I propose <q> because it is close representation to a glottal
> > > stop. The phonemically null onset in Mandarin can be pronunced with
> > > multiple consonants but it is represented by the glottal stop in
> > Cantonese
> > > and Shanghainese. By marking the syllable boundary in this way, /i, y,
> u/
> > > could be represented solely by their IPA counterpart and <v, w> could
> be
> > > used to represent tones instead. This would reserve <v, w, j, x> to
> mark
> > > tones.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Purely out of curiosity, what is your rationale for wanting to use
> letters
> > to mark tones?  In the age of Unicode and computer-aided printing, I
> > believe diacritics have come to cause relative few problems, and they're
> > the conventional means for marking things like tones in the
> Latin-alphabet
> > tradition.  Unlike tone-letters, diacritics wouldn't cause naive
> Westerners
> > to insert spurious segments into Chinese words, which are already hard
> > enough for them to get right.
> >
> > -Mike
> > --
> > co ma'a mke
> >
> > Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com <http://xorban.wordpress.com/>
> > My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com <http://loglang.wordpress.com/>
> >
>



-- 
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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