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CONLANG  September 2017, Week 3

CONLANG September 2017, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Why doesn't English permit tl or dl as true consonant combinations?

From:

Eyal Minsky-Fenick <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 19 Sep 2017 09:18:01 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (148 lines)

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:40 AM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 19 Sep 2017 09:04, "PETER BLEACKLEY" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Diachronically, I predict the rule would be "Words that did not carry
> stress when þ and ð were allophones." In fact, sychronically, it may simply
> be "unstressed words".
>
>
> Synchronically that is certainly false. In the unlikely event of the
> diachronic rule being correct, it would entail a definition of stress
> unrecognizable from the definition of stress in PDE.
>
>
> Numerals do carry stress, which is why "Thirty" is not affected.
>
> .
> "Thirty" is stressed like "thither" and "thicky" (demonstrative) and
> "thonder". Demonstrative "that" is stressed and does not habitually enjoy
> less accentual prominence than, say, "think".

Wait, aren't those first two pronounced as /θɹti/ and /θɪðɹ/?

>
> The interesting thing is that in dialects where "The" may cliticize onto
> the following word, it cliticizes as þ, not ð. I would guess that the
> clitic is seen as a unit with the host word, which does take stress, thus
> mandating a voiceless dental fricative in the onset.
>
>
> There aren't stress differences among
> "that bugger"
> "th'ewd bugger"
> "thick bugger"
>
> While stress might have played a role at the earliest stage, it can't have
> thereafter.
>
> --And.
>
>
>
> ----Original message----
> From : [log in to unmask]
> Date : 19/09/2017 - 00:08 (BST)
> To : [log in to unmask]
> Subject : Re: Why doesn't English permit tl or dl as true consonant
> combinations?
>
> On 17 September 2017 at 20:24, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 18:44:48 +0100, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > >On 6 September 2017 at 11:54, PETER BLEACKLEY <
> > [log in to unmask]
> > >> wrote:
> > >
> > >> In Old English and Middle English, many words ended with an e, which
> has
> > >> been muted in modern English. Function words are generally unstressed,
> > >> which makes the word boundary before them weaker, so the rule
> > "Fricatives
> > >> are voiced between vowels" spread to the þ in function words. However,
> > >> since there is a following consonant in "through", þ could not be
> > >> interpreted as intervocalic there.
> > >
> > >As I think Alex noted, at some point this purely phonological phenomenon
> > >(whose character you describe) must have become transformed into a rule
> > >sensitive to word-class, since only this would account for how come
> > initial
> > >/D/ is entirely absent from normal (i.e. 'cromulent') open-class words
> and
> > >for how come initial simplex /T/ is (almost) entirely absent from
> > >non-open-class words (the synchronic exceptions are _thir-(ty/teen)_,
> > which
> > >presumably arose metathetically subsequent to the death of the
> th-voicing
> > >rule). The question then is whether, once this word-class-sensitive rule
> > >arose, the failure of /Dr-/ to ensue was merely accidental (as Alex had
> > >seemed to suggest) or rather (as I countered) because original /Tr-/
> never
> > >satisfied the phonological conditions on the application of the
> > >word-class-sensitive rule (-- the aetiology of those phonological
> > >conditions being as per your description).
> >
> > There's a question of what word class the statement of the rule should be
> > extended to.  If numbers belonged in it, then _thousand_ should also have
> > been subject (unless that escapes by virtue of having been a noun?).  I
> > don't know another word which is diagnostic for whether prepositions
> > belonged in it: if _through_ is the only preposition with /T-/, that
> fails
> > to determine whether it was the cluster or being a preposition that
> blocked
> > application.
>
>
> In PDE, there is -- I would contend -- no syntactically coherent way of
> capturing word classes containing eth-initial words but excluding
> prepositions. Whether that holds also for the th-voicing stage of the
> language, I don't know, but a reasonable default hypothesis is that it
> does.
>
> In PDE, numbers for powers of ten (100 upwards, but not 10 itself) seem to
> be an open class, including _myriad, googol_ and _-illion_ words
> (squillion, gazillion, bajillion etc) and lack most of the peculiar
> properties of true number words. If that state of affairs obtained also at
> the time of the syntactically-conditioned th-voicing rule, then _thousand_
> would be exempt (but _thirty, thirteen_ would not), if, as I would suggest,
> the syntactic condition was whether the word belonged to an open or closed
> class. ('Open' and 'closed' are here meant as atheoretical descriptions
> serving as a proxy for a theoretical distinction between 'lexical' and
> 'functional' words.)
>
> An interesting question is how come some dialects came to have definite
> article /T/ (but /D/ in other th-initial function words) -- /Tospik@l/
> 'the
> hospital' is a commonly cited example. I've not had the opportunity to
> study anybody with that feature (except as a relic in fixed phrases) so I
> know next to nowt about it.
>
> On the subject of initial eth, I might add that it has various curious
> properties besides its absence from cromulent words. It does not th-front
> to /v/ (in adult lects), unlike other, true eths elsewhere. To a greater or
> lesser extent varying among lects, it is subject to th-dropping of a sort
> analogous to h-dropping (e.g. "better than" can rhyme with "veteran"). I
> conjecture that h and initial eth must share some phonological property
> that other segments lack, and that initial eth has almost nothing in common
> with other eths phonologically apart from similarities of phonetic
> realization. (Given those h-/th-/wh- paradigms, like _hence, thence,
> whence_, it would be fitting if initial (h)w- also shared that phonological
> property, but alas it doesn't.)
>
>
> --And.
>



-- 
Eyal Joseph Minsky-Fenick
[log in to unmask] (personal)
[log in to unmask] (school)
203-393-1394 (home)
203-988-2234 (cell)
9 Birch Rd., Woodbridge, CT 06525

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