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CONLANG  September 2017, Week 3

CONLANG September 2017, Week 3

Subject:

Re: YAEPT word-initial eth

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 19 Sep 2017 23:30:37 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (61 lines)

I grew up knowing "thither" only in print, never hearing or saying it, but
I always thought it had an unvoiced initial. Then only a few years ago, I
realized that it had to be initially voiced to match the pattern. And now
it just sounds weird to me.

stevo

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Mike S. <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 7:08 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> > In PDE, there is -- I would contend -- no syntactically coherent way of
> > capturing word classes containing eth-initial words but excluding
> > prepositions. Whether that holds also for the th-voicing stage of the
> > language, I don't know, but a reasonable default hypothesis is that it
> > does.
> >
>
> It seems to me all the affected words are +definite in meaning: the
> definite article, the demonstrative pronouns, adjectives, and adverbs, and
> even "thou" and kin.  IMHO what we have is not a syntactic condition on a
> phonological change, but a semantic one.  The few words -- like the
> conjunction "than" -- that don't seem to fit the +def constraint are bound
> up with words that do.  "Than" is a twin of "then", and the primary sense
> of "then" is "at that time", which is +def.
>
> Under this view, "through", "three", "thousand", etc. were never going to
> change simply because they are not +def in meaning, nor related to words
> that are.
>
> As Peter Bleakley suggested, the ultimate origin of this odd rule is
> perhaps related to the regular use of some of the th-function words,
> especially "the", in unstressed positions.  The new pronunciation became
> default for these words, became associated with definiteness, and spread by
> analogy to related forms.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:31 AM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> > /θɹti/ and /ðɪðɹ/ are the pronunciations I had in mind. But I discover,
> > from checking OED, that there is indeed a US /θɪðɹ/, which then joins
> > _thirty_ as an example of initial simplex /θ/ in closed-class words).
> >
> >
> I do not recall hearing /θɪðɹ/, but surely this anomalous pronunciation
> occurs only because "thither" has dropped out of colloquial use and
> reappears under the influence of old writings.  Sometimes, it reappears not
> properly "reintegrated" into the paradigm of demonstrative pronouns and
> such.  That's certainly the way I would interpret that pronunciation --
> it's not a holdout from the ancient change but merely the result of
> speakers tripping over an out-of-date word.
>
>  (As usual, I speak mainly from my own experience, but we are talking about
> US English, which I speak a form of.  FWIW, the only use of "thither" that
> comes somewhat naturally for me occurs in the stock phrase "hither and
> thither".  For me that has to be said as /'hɪ.ðɹ.n.'ðɪ.ðɹ/ because it is
> related to and parallel with "here and there". ​)
>

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