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CONLANG  October 2017, Week 4

CONLANG October 2017, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Argument Role Ambiguity

From:

Seth KAZAN <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 23 Oct 2017 22:03:05 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (70 lines)

Ambiguity is constitutive of the language...
Even a very structured system will leave slack when it will have to
coincide with the real in the act of denomination...
Even a priori languages without double articulation...
(Even if because of that they are slanderously excluded from the family of
"true" languages)...

2017-10-22 18:35 GMT+02:00 kechpaja <[log in to unmask]>:

> Ékivrin!
>
> On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 05:09:48AM -0400, J S Jones wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 Oct 2017 17:28:00 -0600, Logan Kearsley <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > >On 21 October 2017 at 16:36, J S Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >> I was wondering if there was any means of associating phrases with
> argument roles that I didn't already know of: case, adposition, obviation,
> word order, animacy hierarchy, and class on the verb. I couldn't come up
> with any system that didn't have some ambiguities, although I thought I did
> at one point.
> > >
> > >Could you perhaps enumerate the unavoidable ambiguities for each
> > >system? If you use, e.g., explicit adpositions / case markers for
> > >every distinct theta role in your grammar (or if you can somehow
> > >manage to explicitly mark every possible *thematic
> > >relation*--something I attempt in WSL by making role markers an open
> > >class, of which new members can be derived from arbitrary nouns), it
> > >seems fairly trivial to eliminate all ambiguities if that's what you
> > >want to do.
> > >
> > >-l.
> >
> > *confusion*
> >
> > I should have said I couldn't come up with any *new* system that didn't
> have some ambiguities. The ones I listed can work well enough.
>
> Oh, that makes its an entirely different question.
>
> I'm not going to say that there aren't other options, because reality
> often ends up holding surprises for those who claim to have all of the
> answers, even to a particular problem. However, human language has been
> around for a long time, and I would hazard a guess that it has explored
> the space of possible argument marking systems pretty thoroughly. The
> ones that existing languages use, presumably, are the ones that work
> well enough — and even then, within the systems that we see in natural
> languages, we find lots of ambiguity, which can usually be resolved by
> context.
>
> That, of course, is not to disuade you from experimenting with new ideas
> and trying to design a system unlike that of any natlang — I suspect
> even the most naturalism-oriented conlangers have tried doing that at
> one point or another, and it often yields interesting ideas (and often
> you reinvent something that, years down the line, you realize a natlang
> *has* done). Keep playing around with whatever project you're working
> on, and eventually you'll find something suitable.
>
> If you're looking for something that will strike an SAE speaker as
> *weird*, try taking something more typical and flipping it around, and
> then imagining how the flipped version might function. What if e.g.
> nouns agreed with verbs, instead of vice versa? Could you get a
> functional argument marking system out of that that wasn't just
> traditional cases?
>
> Good luck!
>
>  - kechpaja -
>

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